Electric Vehicles

[Luckypants]

A discussion brewed up on the SOTD thread about electric vehicles, so I started this thread to move the discussion here.


electric will not work till they can get the charging problem fixed.

What charging problem? :D

[Grant66]

What charging problem? :DHe's probably referring to lack of charging points.

I.e. you only have on-street parking and the charging point nearby has been in use since Monday because Doris from 3 doors down might need to pick up a prescription next week.

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[admin]

He's probably referring to lack of charging points.

I.e. you only have on-street parking and the charging point nearby has been in use since Monday because Doris from 3 doors down might need to pick up a prescription next week.

Sent from an S20 using Tapatalk with that kin cr4p blockedAs Grant says. I use hotels a lot and in the last couple of years I've only been to one hotel that had charging points. They will catch on though and then charge through the nose for the service like they did with wifi.

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[Dave20046]

As Grant says. I use hotels a lot and in the last couple of years I've only been to one hotel that had charging points. They will catch on though and then charge through the nose for the service like they did with wifi.

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They already had phone lines to the houses though (okay they did do a fibre rollout...still ongoing 15 years later)

I don't think the impact and cost of the infrastructure needed should be underestimated. Hotels and service stations aside, the draw a car charger port takes is massive - if every house hold did it (over night) I don't think the grid could keep up...I also wonder if the street cabling could take it!

My main concern is the fact that I don't think battery technology is quite there (hopefully would be soon?!). We've gone from burning fossil fuels to mining lithium (also finite) and burning fossil fuels to charge the lithium. I've not looked at how much lithium goes in a battery and how long a battery last etc but I'm hoping someone's done the sums! I'm somewhat sceptical 10 years is enough to do all of the above.

Aware I now sound like a whackjob conspiracy theorist after my oil monkey joke..

[Seeker]

If electric bikes were cheaper and had a bit better range I'd go for one. Some cars have the range but are still too expensive for me to justify with the few miles I drive. One comment I saw was that electric cars are no more expensive than petrol over the long term. This may well be true but I have never bought a vehicle based on how much it will cost long term - the deciding factor has always been the upfront cost.

[Luckypants]

I don't think the impact and cost of the infrastructure needed should be underestimated. Hotels and service stations aside, the draw a car charger port takes is massive - if every house hold did it (over night) I don't think the grid could keep up...I also wonder if the street cabling could take it!

The national grid have said on multiple occasions that the grid has the capacity to cope. Especially so as most people will charge overnight when load on the grid is much lower. e.g. https://www.nationalgrid.com/stories/journey-to-net-zero/5-myths-about-electric-vehicles-busted

My main concern is the fact that I don't think battery technology is quite there (hopefully would be soon?!)

What is the concern here? Most EV manufacturers offer an 8 year warranty on the battery / drive train. Charging is up to 350Kw now (Taycan) although rare. Ranges up to 400 miles on a charge are now available.

We've gone from burning fossil fuels to mining lithium (also finite) and burning fossil fuels to charge the lithium.

Batteries are recyclable and all the lithium can be recovered and re-used. So while it is a finite resource, we should be OK. The use of cobalt in EV batteries is going down as we find new chemistries and will be eliminated very soon. The cobalt is also recoverable.

There is no doubt Tesla leads the way in mass market battery technology but others are catching up. If the 'glass battery' can be proved and produced in volume, it will change everything.

UK energy mix is heavily reliant on fossil fuels, but not as heavily as people think. The UK has not burned any significant coal to generate electricity since February and that's a good thing as coal is the dirtiest and least efficient fuel. Wind and Solar now account for the majority of power in low demand periods. The government's Green Strategy announced yesterday will direct a lot of investment into getting the green power up towards 100%. A usefule link to see how we are doing. https://gridwatch.co.uk/

[Adam Ef]

There was the same problem with petrol cars when they first came about. No garages / fuel available in certain areas. There were similar expeditions to try to prove that petrol travel was possible over distance as are happening now with electric.


Some interesting discussion on it in one of Teapotone's podcasts...


KOvI6-ZQiMA

[admin]

I've got one of these in my garage. Range is very limited.

https://i.postimg.cc/qvp4D949/tam58384.jpg

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[Dave20046]

The national grid have said on multiple occasions that the grid has the capacity to cope. Especially so as most people will charge overnight when load on the grid is much lower. e.g. https://www.nationalgrid.com/stories/journey-to-net-zero/5-myths-about-electric-vehicles-busted



What is the concern here? Most EV manufacturers offer an 8 year warranty on the battery / drive train. Charging is up to 350Kw now (Taycan) although rare. Ranges up to 400 miles on a charge are now available.



Batteries are recyclable and all the lithium can be recovered and re-used. So while it is a finite resource, we should be OK. The use of cobalt in EV batteries is going down as we find new chemistries and will be eliminated very soon. The cobalt is also recoverable.

There is no doubt Tesla leads the way in mass market battery technology but others are catching up. If the 'glass battery' can be proved and produced in volume, it will change everything.

UK energy mix is heavily reliant on fossil fuels, but not as heavily as people think. The UK has not burned any significant coal to generate electricity since February and that's a good thing as coal is the dirtiest and least efficient fuel. Wind and Solar now account for the majority of power in low demand periods. The government's Green Strategy announced yesterday will direct a lot of investment into getting the green power up towards 100%. A usefule link to see how we are doing. https://gridwatch.co.uk/



The national grid have said on multiple occasions that the grid has the capacity to cope. Especially so as most people will charge overnight when load on the grid is much lower. e.g. https://www.nationalgrid.com/stories/journey-to-net-zero/5-myths-about-electric-vehicles-busted

It does say they aren't quite there yet, but sounds optimistic!
Not just grid supply, I was thinking if every house hold quadruples their draw and does it at once, when they get home at 7pm the street wiring might not be up to it .



What is the concern here? Most EV manufacturers offer an 8 year warranty on the battery / drive train. Charging is up to 350Kw now (Taycan) although rare. Ranges up to 400 miles on a charge are now available.
Lots of things, mainly the time taken to charge. If I'm driving to Scotland and I run out of fuel I pull over and fill up for 15 minutes, I ideally don't want to be waiting 6hrs for a charge. While you can plan trips but life doesn't always work like that + couriers/taxis (although they may be automated soon!) etc time is money. And then general performance, cost, weight amount of materials needed to produce them. Though I don't think they are too far off this. While I like the idea of them,I wouldn't want to depend on one yet.

I think it would be cost prohibitive for a lot of people too. I'm not saying anyone can buy a Tesla in the first place, but at £5k for a battery every 8 years, buying a second hand one is not an option for a lot of people with the curent tech. I bought my car for about that 11 years ago, it's done 200k - I've literally bought nothing other than tyres, springs, bushes and pads & disks for it - not even a clutch which would be a few hundred...but it's not thousands. Unless of course I'd save 5k on fuel!
That said I'm optimistic batteries will improve enough in the next few years, I was more concerned about infra.



Batteries are recyclable and all the lithium can be recovered and re-used. So while it is a finite resource, we should be OK. The use of cobalt in EV batteries is going down as we find new chemistries and will be eliminated very soon. The cobalt is also recoverable.

There is no doubt Tesla leads the way in mass market battery technology but others are catching up. If the 'glass battery' can be proved and produced in volume, it will change everything.
This is what I'm hoping for. I hadn't thought about lithium recovery, that's a biggy,

UK energy mix is heavily reliant on fossil fuels, but not as heavily as people think. The UK has not burned any significant coal to generate electricity since February and that's a good thing as coal is the dirtiest and least efficient fuel. Wind and Solar now account for the majority of power in low demand periods. The government's Green Strategy announced yesterday will direct a lot of investment into getting the green power up towards 100%. A usefule link to see how we are doing. https://gridwatch.co.uk/
That is useful. Mine is 100% green at the mo, I was worried that may not be possible to retain at peak hours with leccy cars


Edit: sorry I read that as 8 year life expectancy rather than warranty. Have they revised that, I was under the impression they only lasted 5-10 years. + If the link you posted is right it probably would save me about that much on fuel.

[Luckypants]

Edit: sorry I read that as 8 year life expectancy rather than warranty. Have they revised that, I was under the impression they only lasted 5-10 years.Yes they have. There are many documented cases of Teslas still going strong after 300+k miles and as the Model S is now 8 years old, we have real life experience. Here is a roadtest and assessment of an old Tesla https://youtu.be/m9VxDzr7prc


If there is a risk of derailing the Smile thread, I'll open a new one and move these posts. What do people think?

[Dave20046]

Yes they have. There are many documented cases of Teslas still going strong after 300+k miles and as the Model S is now 8 years old, we have real life experience. Here is a roadtest and assessment of an old Tesla https://youtu.be/m9VxDzr7prc


If there is a risk of derailing the Smile thread, I'll open a new one and move these posts. What do people think?
:smt016 I can save my amazement at that battery degredation for another thread. I'm genuinely hoping lectric cars are viable for all now but wrapped up in cynism ... I'm aware those views are probably formed from conversations 3 or 4 years so interested to learn more.

[admin]

If there is a risk of derailing the Smile thread, I'll open a new one and move these posts. What do people think?

Good idea

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[Adam Ef]

My uncle bought an electric car with a scheme from the manufacturer that the dealer lends him a petrol car 3 times a year for longer trips. He does Usk to Edinburgh 3 times a year to visit family and that's the only time that long charge times would be difficult for him. It would make it into a couple of days journey rather than one. The manufacturers know this and have schemes like a loan petrol vehicle in place for this reason. Most people are fine with the range capable now for 95%* of their journeys, but are put off buying due to their need for the other 5%* .



( *approx guestimate )

[admin]

I was watching a YT video on repairing a battery pack on a 3 year old Leaf. The battery looks quite serviceable.

https://youtu.be/Ws9Y1be8N-U

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[Adam Ef]

The main thing that interests me about electric motorcycles is the torque. Many seem to have in excess of 200nm of torque! I love torque :-)

[admin]

My uncle bought an electric car with a scheme from the manufacturer that the dealer lends him a petrol car 3 times a year for longer trips. He does Usk to Edinburgh 3 times a year to visit family and that's the only time that long charge times would be difficult for him. It would make it into a couple of days journey rather than one. The manufacturers know this and have schemes like a loan petrol vehicle in place for this reason. Most people are fine with the range capable now for 95%* of their journeys, but are put off buying due to their need for the other 5%* .



( *approx guestimate )Same for me. I'd would be quite happy with an EV as 95% of my journeys are local.

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[Luckypants]

My uncle bought an electric car with a scheme from the manufacturer that the dealer lends him a petrol car 3 times a year for longer trips. He does Usk to Edinburgh 3 times a year to visit family and that's the only time that long charge times would be difficult for him. It would make it into a couple of days journey rather than one. The manufacturers know this and have schemes like a loan petrol vehicle in place for this reason. Most people are fine with the range capable now for 95%* of their journeys, but are put off buying due to their need for the other 5%* .



( *approx guestimate )

Thats not a bad idea! I must admit when my lease was up I wanted an electric car, but nothing had the range for my benchmark long distance trip that I could afford. I did consider hiring a long distance motor for these trips, but didn't like the idea of having a serviceable car at home while driving a rental! The 'swap' might have worked for me.

There were so many new EV vehicles promised last spring that I extended my lease by a year to see what happens. There are now vehicles I can afford and have the range, so that is no longer a problem for me. I hope to change next spring. I think a lot of people forget that on a long trip, you need pee stops and food stops - this is when you charge. A pee stop on the motorway will take 15 minutes or so, charge your car at that time and you get a useful boost in range. Food stop will be 45-60 minutes, which gives almost a full charge on most cars on a rapid charger. Ultra chargers such as Ionity / Gridserve /FastNED / Tesla Superchargers can charge to full in 30 minutes or less, depending on your car's capabilities. So you don't make fuel stops, you feed the car when you feed yourself - this means that 200 miles or so of range is sufficient even for long trips - at my age I cannot go 4 hours without a pit-stop!

[Grant66]

Not just grid supply, I was thinking if every house hold quadruples their draw and does it at once, when they get home at 7pm the street wiring might not be up to it

As the range of the vehicle improves the necessity to charge every day reduces. Range has increased considerably in the last few years, what will it be in another 10?

You don't refill your petrol tank after every journey, so why would you top up your electric car if it has another 400 miles to empty?

The worst case is that in 2030, I can't buy a new petrol car, but I can keep the one I have going. Surely that is an incentive for car manufacturers to produce something that is suitable for everyday use.


One idea to combat the charging/range issue is to have a common interchangeable battery pack. So at service station, swap battery pack, go on merry way.

There is a solution it just needs thinking about and setting a deadline gives the discussion and problem solving some momentum.

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[Bibio]

A discussion brewed up on the SOTD thread about electric vehicles, so I started this thread to move the discussion here.




What charging problem? :D
the waiting time from empty to full. lets say i'm a muppet and forget to plug the vehicle in when i get home so the next day i dont have enough charge to go where i want.. at the moment its going to take 1hr min to charge the vehicle. or even worse i have to charge on the go so sit somewhere for 1hr twiddling my thumbs. thats the problem with electric vehicles.


for electric vehicles to work we are going to need charge on the go provided by contactless charging road infrastructure. otherwise battery (petrol) stations where you get a fully charged 'pack' swapped over.

[Seeker]

I like the idea of going electric but we are hopeless at implementing infrastructure. There are people still struggling with broadband and the (rural) cellular network is patchy at best. I can imagine being low on charge in the middle of nowhere with one charging station, a queue of 12 cars waiting and it closes in 15 minutes (but I'm a cynic).
Might be a good time to invest in vehicle rescue services or a mobile charging station with a massive diesel generator j/k.

[Bibio]

another thing is where does the electricity come from? so unless we go completely renewable then its nuclear or fossil.


if everyone had an electric vehicle and plugged it in when they get home from work it will cause a massive demand on the grid and at the moment there is already a massive demand at T time due to cookers, kettles etc.etc.

[SV650rules]

Still many problems with BEV, not least of which is the cost and then the depreciation ( it is in lead balloon territory, and makes the Hardnot Pass look flat ) - fast charging wrecks the batteries, some cars will only let you do it once a day. Fast to charge to 80% ( which is why all the adverts quote figures like 90minutes to 80% charge, the last 20% takes hours ). Keeping Li-Ion batteries fully charged damages them, discharging then to a low level damages them - most car systems try to keep the battery between 30% and 80% level - so much so that they don't let you charge to more than 80% and when you get to 30% the car stops moving - some have an 'emergency' switch to let you access the last 30% if you are really stuck, The algorithms gradually increase the 80% and decrease the 30% as the battery ages to maintain range. Take a BEV on the motorway at 70 to 80 and expect to get 60% of claimed range ( which is measured at a steady 50mph on a flat track ). Do not try to tow anything with a BEV - they do not do towing, despite the torque available the range will drop to 50%. No charging points, and if we continue to go the way we are with fans on sticks and solar panels ( OK for ornamental garden lights but not for running a country ) there will not be any power to charge them anyway. Other than that BEV are fine and super......

[Luckypants]

the waiting time from empty to full. lets say i'm a muppet and forget to plug the vehicle in when i get home so the next day i dont have enough charge to go where i want.. at the moment its going to take 1hr min to charge the vehicle. or even worse i have to charge on the go so sit somewhere for 1hr twiddling my thumbs. thats the problem with electric vehicles.

Agree thats a problem, but do you forget to charge your phone overnight? I think plugging in the car will become second nature. For me the worry is those unexpected urgent trips, where you have to jump in the car and go.

However, you don't need to twiddle your thumbs for an hour while it charges, just long enough to get enough charge to get where you need to be. That is likely to be less than 50 miles in most cases, so a 10-20 minute charge will probably do it on a public rapid charger. (e.g. VW ID.3 will add 160 miles of range an hour on a 50Kw charger, so you get 50 miles in 20 minutes. A Tesla Model 3 standard range will add 50 miles in 7 minutes at a Tesla Supercharger).

[Craig380]

This feature is interesting: doing a 700-mile round trip to Edinburgh in a Hyundai Kona.

During the trip, the author stopped at eight DC rapid chargers at motorway services, and only two of them worked. That's the big problem - if you need to charge en route, there's no certainty you'll be able to.

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/features/kona-edinburgh-700-miles-hyundais-new-ev-masses

[Luckypants]

another thing is where does the electricity come from? so unless we go completely renewable then its nuclear or fossil.


if everyone had an electric vehicle and plugged it in when they get home from work it will cause a massive demand on the grid and at the moment there is already a massive demand at T time due to cookers, kettles etc.etc.

See my answer earlier to Dave numbers, National Grid say it won't be a problem. All EV's allow for scheduled charging, so everyone goes economy 7 / agile pricing system and charges their car at night when energy is cheapest. Peak demand is 4-7pm. Having an EV also makes solar panels more attractive if you are that way inclined, so another way to reduce the need for fossil fuel generation.

[Bibio]

Agree thats a problem, but do you forget to charge your phone overnight? I think plugging in the car will become second nature. For me the worry is those unexpected urgent trips, where you have to jump in the car and go.

However, you don't need to twiddle your thumbs for an hour while it charges, just long enough to get enough charge to get where you need to be. That is likely to be less than 50 miles in most cases, so a 10-20 minute charge will probably do it on a public rapid charger. (e.g. VW ID.3 will add 160 miles of range an hour on a 50Kw charger, so you get 50 miles in 20 minutes. A Tesla Model 3 standard range will add 50 miles in 7 minutes at a Tesla Supercharger).


thats still a waiting time and it has already been said about queues. not to mention people running out of charge on the roads.



what i can see happening is charging stations at retail parks to get the bored public to spend more money while they wait.


i'm in agreement that something needs to be done to stop reliance on fossil fuels but until a proper infrastructure has been put in place its not going to happen.


also when we are electric vehicle reliant it will push the price of electricity through the roof due to the reliance of especially our governments taxation system. so instead of paying lets say 15p a unit we will be paying £1 a unit and i also suspect that we will all be given a usage quota and thats why there is such a big push on smart meters. go over your quota and you will be charged £5 a unit.


there is still enough oil reserves to last another few hundred years so all this hurry about electric vehicles is unnecessary.


ooohhh and lets not forget all the jobs its creating and putting even more money into schoolboy warking chums pockets.

[daktulos]

I live in a terrace and sometimes have to park streets away as there's barely enough parking space for the number of houses. Digging up the road to put a charging point in for every space would be crazy hard (and expensive to use as the council would need to recoup the money somehow).

I actually don't see it happening. The 2030 deadline doesn't include hybrid cars, so people will buy those and just use them as slightly less efficient petrol cars.

I think the only hope is for hydrogen engines or fuel cells.

[Luckypants]

I live in a terrace and sometimes have to park streets away as there's barely enough parking space for the number of houses. Digging up the road to put a charging point in for every space would be crazy hard (and expensive to use as the council would need to recoup the money somehow)

There are options to have chargers integrated into street lamps now. They are installed quite widely in Liverpool, where I've seen them in use. These are on terraced streets. London is adopting them widely also. Not a complete solution but its a start. There is also work place charging and public rapid chargers, but granted not as convenient as home charging. This needs to be addressed and I think we should look to Norway and Denmark for ideas as they have much higher EV take up and many more folks living in apartment blocks etc.

[Luckypants]

Seems like I'm the only person thinks EVs are good idea :geek::geek:

[Bibio]

I think the only hope is for hydrogen engines or fuel cells.
this.


problem is that all manufacturers are now gearing up to make electric cars. the other problem with fuel cell is the creation of the hydrogen which until there is a passive cheap catalyst found will be more costly to produce than electric. good thing about hydrogen is that it can be created as a powder which you would fill your vehicle with just like at the petrol station at the moment.


at this moment i think hybrid is the way forward until we can get a proper infrastructure implemented for full electric. this plugging cars into charge is not the way forward.

[Bibio]

Seems like I'm the only person thinks EVs are good idea :geek::geek:
no i do too but the infrastructure needs a lot more thought. one of the biggest problems holding the advancement is patents and to move forward they all need to be quashed.

[Luckypants]

Until a cheap way to produce hydrogen is developed fuel cell is a pipe dream. Norway, the leader in use of non-fossil cars has closed its hydrogen filling stations because they kept blowing up. If you think we have a problem with BEV charging stations, the problems building out hydrogen filling stations will be huge compared.

Can you tell me more about powdered hydrogen? I've never heard of it.

[Bibio]

its made by Johnson Matthey but not very well known about as the tech hit a brick wall due to nobody being interested as far as i know its patented.

[SV650rules]

https://www.gknpm.com/en/innovation/hydrogen-technology/hy2green/

[Adam Ef]

Seems like I'm the only person thinks EVs are good idea :geek::geek:


I like the idea. I looked at cars recently to get an idea of what is about and what it's capable of when ours needs renewing, which will be soon. I'd love to have an electric car. Then I saw the prices. No way they're anywhere near affordable for us unfortunately.

[daktulos]

There are options to have chargers integrated into street lamps now. They are installed quite widely in Liverpool, where I've seen them in use. These are on terraced streets. London is adopting them widely also. Not a complete solution but its a start. There is also work place charging and public rapid chargers, but granted not as convenient as home charging.

We currently have three lamp posts on my side of the street (and they're converted gas lamps). 28 houses, probably around 20 spaces. They'd still need to dig up the street to reach each space, and the power consumption would be massively more than street lamps need.

There's a difference between putting a few charging spots around lamp posts and *having* to power every parking space. I really can't see it working - I like the idea of electric cars, but I think they're a short-term fix.

This needs to be addressed and I think we should look to Norway and Denmark for ideas as they have much higher EV take up and many more folks living in apartment blocks etc.

They also have a lot more space!

[Dave20046]

Seems like I'm the only person thinks EVs are good idea :geek::geek:

No , I do. I just think we're a long way off and 2030 will be pushed back. As I've already said about fibre optic infrastructure still problematic, let's see how well we do though. I've had an irking feeling lately they should have spent more time entertaining the hydrogen route(or other) seeing as it's pretty much the same infrastructure as petrol stations and no charge times or lithium mining (though you've taught me something on that one). If it wasn't the requirement to depend on one, I'd consider one...but in my situation that'd be my beloved bike slot in the garage and not sure I can do that yet - I've not yet taken the leap to these modern 4 cylinder things. Maybe if I was someone hwo had a car but didn't use it for business. In the future I hope that changes.

That said - if Tesla could knock £40k off their RRP I'd buy one. I was just looking at second hand ones and I found one for £20k...that was spares or repair.

I have been youtubing it a bit as I know I'm not up on the latest. I was surprised the batteries don't degrade too fast (if looked after), guess I shouldn;t be at the price...it's a whole different kettle of c0cks to a iphone or laptop that I'm basing experience on. Fast charge does seem to be a nono still though. It's going to be the new 'one lady owner' - 'one laid back git who never needed to get anywhere quick'.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IHz-Kx5h_Tw

[Dave20046]

There are options to have chargers integrated into street lamps now. They are installed quite widely in Liverpool, where I've seen them in use.

In liverpool those lamps also power the weed farm infrastructure :smt044

[shiftin_gear98]

https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/nissan/qashqai/103736/new-2021-nissan-qashqai-go-hybrid-only-pictures

I think this is the way it'll go. And although I drive a Qashqui, I couldn't afford a new one.

[Dave20046]

Looks good. I'd heard BMW were primed to do something amazing last year but that doesn't appear to have pulled through. To be honest I was under the impression Tesla were the only ones worth entertaining ...but... price

Wonder if any forummers own any EV offering?

[Adam Ef]

Owning a Passatt as a family car I looked at the VW option... £30k-£40k ... erm. no.



If I owned one I'd want it fully electric otherwise you're still lumbering yourself with the work needed and servicing etc for a combustion engine as well as the cost of the electrics.

[Luckypants]

Fast charge does seem to be a nono still though. It's going to be the new 'one lady owner' - 'one laid back git who never needed to get anywhere quick'.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IHz-Kx5h_Tw

It seems to be dependant on a number of things with rapid charging. First off is how well the car itself looks after the battery, active heat management makes a big difference. Tesla have always charged well as they have always had liquid cooling of the battery pack. Nissan Leafs on the other hand have no active battery cooling and rely on the air wafting around to cool the battery - on long trips Leafs "rapidgate" as the battery gets hot charging and is not cooled enough driving, this leads to the charging system throttling the charge to a crawl to prevent the battery overheating. The other issue with rapid charging is taking it to 100%, as this is where the most damage can be done and all EVs throttle back charging as they fill up to prevent battery damage. The recommendation is to charge to 80% max unless setting off on a long journey and not to charge to 100% on a long journey via a rapid charger. Take a look at this, high mileage Teslas which were almost exclusively Supercharged https://electrek.co/2018/07/17/tesla-model-s-holds-up-400000-miles-3-years/

I know I am going on about Tesla, but thats because they are market leaders and also have been around a long time in EV terms, so there is a lot of data about how the cars perform. I will also refer to Nissan Leafs a lot for the same reasons. Renault Zoes are starting to give useful long term data now after being out 4+ years, (In fact I slightly regret not getting one when we had to replace the little car) but the current Zoe is very different to the original.

[SV650rules]

I was surprised the batteries don't degrade too fast (if looked after), guess I shouldn;t be at the price...it's a whole different kettle of c0cks to a iphone or laptop that I'm basing experience on. Fast charge does seem to be a nono still though. It's going to be the new 'one lady owner' - 'one laid back git who never needed to get anywhere quick'.


The BEV batteries are same technology as an i-phone or samsung battery - just bigger. When you get a new BEV the computer limits the charging and discharging of battery to 80% and 30%, this is like having a 50 litre fuel tank on a car and not being able to fill it more than 40 litres and not being able to use the last 15 litres. This is done to protect the battery ( so the car is actually lugging around a battery that is only half used, and unlike a fuel tank a battery does not get lighter as the fuel gets used ).

As the battery ages the limits are increased to say ( maybe 12 months ) to 85% and 25% in order to use more of the degrading battery to preserve range. When it come to range that is a whole difference between what makers claim and what you can achieve. Take a BEV on the motorway and you get 60% of claimed range, unless you want to go everywhere at 50mph and live in a flat area like Norfolk. Fast charging is also a no-no - I read of a bloke who actually sued Nissan - he had waited for the new larger capacity Leaf to go on sale - a claimed 235 miles and fast charge from empty ( by which they mean 30% ) to 80% ( by which they mean full ) in about 90 minutes. he found that he never got more than 150miles range and the control system on the car would not allow more than 1 fast charge per day - so on his trip from Yorkshire to Cornwall he was stuck on motorway services for hours while his car 'slow charged'.... A trip that would take 6 hours in an ICE car took him all day, most of it spent on motorway services. Anyone with a boat, caravan or anything else that needs towing should avoid BEV, they 'don't do towing' - the battery gets flattened quicker than a hedgehog on a motorway.

As for one lady owner, if the battery is left hooked up for too long not being used it damages it, if the battery is left in a discharged state for too long it damages it... there are a lot of things makers try to hide when advertising electric cars, and so does the government in their headlong rush to de-carbonise UK ( even though we produce less than 1.5% of worldwide emissions ) - the main result of our rush to de-carbonise is to drive jobs offshore, to places that are not as silly as we are ( Germany was building coal fired power stations until very recently and China never stopped building them ). You cannot run a country when you rely on fans on sticks for your electrical power.

[Luckypants]

The BEV batteries are same technology as an i-phone or samsung battery - just bigger. When you get a new BEV the computer limits the charging and discharging of battery to 80% and 30%, this is like having a 50 litre fuel tank on a car and not being able to fill it more than 40 litres and not being able to use the last 15 litres. This is done to protect the battery ( so the car is actually lugging around a battery that is only half used, and unlike a fuel tank a battery does not get lighter as the fuel gets used ).

Wrong. You are confusing the recommended range for state of charge with physical limits. The recommended maximum charge by most manufacturers is 80% for everyday driving and to plug in to charge at about 20%. The upper limit is to prevent damage by sustained high state of charge, apparently keeping a lithium battery at 100% will promote dendrite growth and lead to loss of capacity. The lower limit is just like a low fuel warning, you get prompted to charge and eventually you would go into limp mode at below 10%. The car shuts down at 0%. The percentages here are of usable battery.

There are physical limits to the battery imposed by the manufacturer and these are 1 or 2% of the battery's physical capacity. These are to protect from damage from overcharging or being discharged to absolutely empty - that will kill a lithium ion battery. These upper and lower buffers are well known from phone and laptop applications and are often not counted as part of battery capacity. The percentage state of charge in an EV does not include these buffers and 100% charge for instance is 100% of usable battery. An example I can quote is the new Skoda Enyaq will have an 80Kw battery but will have 77Kw usable battery.

As the battery ages the limits are increased to say ( maybe 12 months ) to 85% and 25% in order to use more of the degrading battery to preserve range.

Wrong. Battery degradation is known and battery warranties are based on having a certain percentage of usable battery after x years. Most offer 75%-80% still usable after 8 years.

When it come to range that is a whole difference between what makers claim and what you can achieve. Take a BEV on the motorway and you get 60% of claimed range, unless you want to go everywhere at 50mph and live in a flat area like Norfolk.

True. Like fossil cars, fuel consumption goes up at high speeds like motorway driving. The WLTP measurement cycle is well known to be inaccurate for both ICE and electric vehicles.

Fast charging is also a no-no - I read of a bloke who actually sued Nissan - he had waited for the new larger capacity Leaf to go on sale - a claimed 235 miles and fast charge from empty ( by which they mean 30% ) to 80% ( by which they mean full ) in about 90 minutes. he found that he never got more than 150miles range and the control system on the car would not allow more than 1 fast charge per day so on his trip from Yorkshire to Cornwall he was stuck on motorway services for hours while his car 'slow charged'.... A trip that would take 6 hours in an ICE car took him all day, most of it spent on motorway services.

Like all cars, consumption depends on use. See above about WLTP range predictions. The rapidgate for multiple rapid charges for the Nissan Leaf is a well known issue and makes it useless for long distance. See one of my previous posts about the lack of active battery cooling on Leafs. The newly announced Nissan Ariya will fix this. Tesla/VW/Audi/BMW I3/Porsche/Jaguar etc all have active battery cooling and can be rapid charged as often as needed, although it does slow down on hot days when battery gets warmer - but that won't be a UK issue. How did this bloke get on with suing them?

Anyone with a boat, caravan or anything else that needs towing should avoid BEV, they 'don't do towing' - the battery gets flattened quicker than a hedgehog on a motorway.

True, but as most EVs are not rated to tow, fitting a towbar is illegal due to construction and use regulations. However, towing anything in a car will dramatically increase consumption, so hardly surprising range takes a hit. A 500 mile range diesel car won't do that pulling your caravan ether.

[embee]

The whole business of "green" is veiled in smoke (sic) and mirrors. Electric vehicles are no exception. You have to ask the question "what is the purpose of the action?"
If the purpose of electric vehicles is to improve air quality in cities, reducing NOx and particulates, then absolutely bring it on.
If it's the thought that it reduces CO2, then take a step back and look at the reality.
Consider a true electric vehicle (battery only, BEV). A small BEV like a Nissan Leaf will do around 4mls/kWh of battery charge, a larger one (Tesla etc) are probably nearer 3mls/kWh. If the electricity is generated by wind or water, great ................ except it isn't. Assessments vary, but we still use gas to generate around a third of our electricity (23Twh out of about 75TWh total per quarter)
https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/data-portal/electricity-generation-mix-quarter-and-fuel-source-gb
Gas generation produces around 500gCO2eq/kWh, so even ignoring transmisson/charging losses, that's around 125-170g/mile (so probably more like 150-225g/mile in reality) for your typical BEV.
A small petrol car produces around 200g/mile (125g/km), a medium car around 300g/mile.
http://www.aef.org.uk/downloads/Grams_CO2_transportmodesUK.pdf
You can see that a small petrol car actually is quite comparable to a similar BEV for CO2 emissions if the electricity is produced by burning gas, a BEV equating to maybe 75% of the petrol car. As long as we use gas for the marginal generation to react to demand above the baseline for renewable/nuclear the savings are not that great and certainly nothing like some would have us believe. If we can increase the renewable up to a much greater share then we start to be in business. It might be argued that forcing the switch from IC to BEV may not be the most cost effective use of investment, there are better ways to reduce net CO2 globally.
The argument is similar for the idea of getting rid of domestic gas boilers. As far as I can find, a typical domestic boiler works out at around 220g/kWh heat produced, that's less than half the CO2 produced by burning gas in a power station and heating your home with electricity. Bonkers suggestion to ban domestic gas boilers until the generation is predominantly by renewables and much less by gas.
BEVs certainly have other attractions, servicing implications etc.

[SV650rules]

The percentage state of charge in an EV does not include these buffers and 100% charge for instance is 100% of usable battery. An example I can quote is the new Skoda Enyaq will have an 80Kw battery but will have 77Kw usable battery.


The limits are still imposed by battery manufacturers when battery fitted to a car or other vehicle, the battery chemistry is still the same whether a battery is in a phone or a car. The 80/20 rule is imposed by the cars charging control computer and are not visible to the owner, when it says 100% on the screen in the car it is not 100%, and the car will stop moving at 20%, not just show a warning light - Tesla remotely unlocked the minimum charge limit on their cars during the last hurricane in USA to allow drivers to go further. When Top Gear tested a Tesla the car stopped at roadside and Jeremy Clarkson called dealer to tell them to come with a tow truck - a bloke turned up with a laptop and 'unlocked' last 20% of battery so the car could limp to a charge station.

Oh and another thing, not only can you not tow with an electric car, you cannot tow an electric car either, there is no neutral position in transmission and you can damage motors , electronics and battery if you try to tow it like a normal vehicle. So you will need a flatbed trailer type tow truck ££££££££'s8-[

Li-Ion batteries get stored at about 40% charge after manufacture for longest possible shelf life, there is a damned good reason for this as a charge level above or below that reduces battery life.

[Dave20046]

The limits are still imposed by battery manufacturers when battery fitted to a car or other vehicle, the battery chemistry is still the same whether a battery is in a phone or a car. The 80/20 rule is imposed by the cars charging control computer and are not visible to the owner, when it says 100% on the screen in the car it is not 100%, and the car will stop moving at 20%, not just show a warning light - Tesla remotely unlocked the minimum charge limit on their cars during the last hurricane in USA to allow drivers to go further. When Top Gear tested a Tesla the car stopped at roadside and Jeremy Clarkson called dealer to tell them to come with a tow truck - a bloke turned up with a laptop and 'unlocked' last 20% of battery so the car could limp to a charge station.

Oh and another thing, not only can you not tow with an electric car, you cannot tow an electric car either, there is no neutral position in transmission and you can damage motors , electronics and battery if you try to tow it like a normal vehicle. So you will need a flatbed trailer type tow truck ££££££££'s8-[
I'm now an expert after watching 3 youtube videos and it sounds as though they have cooling technology in the cars that don't appear in iphones etc. That rings true with my own experiences of failing iphones after getting extremely hot.
The statistics cited in the videos directly linked hot batteries to prematurely aged batteries. If the batteries genuinely do more often than not last nigh on a decade (and are still usable in that lifetime) I'm a bit less worried about them on that front.

Other than that I have nothing to add:flower:

[SV650rules]

The whole business of "green" is veiled in smoke (sic) and mirrors. Electric vehicles are no exception. You have to ask the question "what is the purpose of the action?"
If the purpose of electric vehicles is to improve air quality in cities, reducing NOx and particulates, then absolutely bring it on.
If it's the thought that it reduces CO2, then take a step back and look at the reality.
Consider a true electric vehicle (battery only, BEV). A small BEV like a Nissan Leaf will do around 4mls/kWh of battery charge, a larger one (Tesla etc) are probably nearer 3mls/kWh. If the electricity is generated by wind or water, great ................ except it isn't. Assessments vary, but we still use gas to generate around a third of our electricity (23Twh out of about 75TWh total per quarter)
https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/data-portal/electricity-generation-mix-quarter-and-fuel-source-gb
Gas generation produces around 500gCO2eq/kWh, so even ignoring transmisson/charging losses, that's around 125-170g/mile (so probably more like 150-225g/kWh in reality) for your typical BEV.
A small petrol car produces around 200g/mile (125g/km), a medium car around 300g/mile.
http://www.aef.org.uk/downloads/Grams_CO2_transportmodesUK.pdf
You can see that a small petrol car actually is quite comparable to a similar BEV for CO2 emissions if the electricity is produced by burning gas, a BEV equating to maybe 75% of the petrol car. As long as we use gas for the marginal generation to react to demand above the baseline for renewable/nuclear the savings are not that great and certainly nothing like some would have us believe. If we can increase the renewable up to a much greater share then we start to be in business. It might be argued that forcing the switch from IC to BEV may not be the most cost effective use of investment, there are better ways to reduce net CO2 globally.
The argument is similar for the idea of getting rid of domestic gas boilers. As far as I can find, a typical domestic boiler works out at around 220g/kWh heat produced, that's less than half the CO2 produced by burning gas in a power station and heating your home with electricity. Bonkers suggestion to ban domestic gas boilers until the generation is predominantly by renewables and much less by gas.
BEVs certainly have other attractions, servicing implications etc.

The problem is that the people who are 'driving' the green agenda ( politicians ) have no understanding of much except fiddling their expenses and talking - they rarely understand logic or science. They are however open to lobby groups bearing brown envelopes...... Modern gas boilers are about 90 to 95% efficient at extracting heat from gas, you put a power station and distribution network into the equation and you get nowhere near that figure. Remember these are the people who dreamed up 'bio-mass' = chopping down forests and shipping the resulting wood pellets 1000's of miles to burn in a power station. These are the same politicians that reduced investment in UK industry that much that we can no longer build our own nuclear power stations ( advanced gas cooled reactors which are the safest design in the world ) and rely on other to build dodgy and dangerous water cooled reactors.

[Luckypants]

I explained the difference between physical buffers and usable SoC. This 80/20 rule you are stating is complete rubbish. Please point out an article that demonstrates this rule and so contradicts everything I've read for the past 2 years.

For example "The battery of the Volkswagen ID.3 Pro S has a total capacity of 82 kWh. The usable capacity is 77 kWh." https://ev-database.uk/car/1203/Volkswagen-ID3-Pro-S By your concept of "you can only use 80% down to 20%" (60% of the battery) an ID.3 would have a useable battery of 49.2Kwh (82*0.6).

Wrong.

[SV650rules]

It is the chemistry of the battery, which is the same for a phone, laptop or car. The chemistry does not change because the battery is fitted to a car. The upshot is that the car is carrying a battery around that is larger than needed because of the limits of its charge and discharge on number of charge and discharge cycles. The limits of li-Ion batteries are well documented, and have always been there - the are better than the NiCad and NiMh that we used to have ( that had a memory effect built in ) - but all batteries have their limits, your lead acid motorbike or car batteries get sulphated up if regularly kept below 70 to 80% charge, and get damaged if fully discharged.

https://www.eyerys.com/articles/40-80-rule-battery-charging-dealing-lithium-based-chemical-problems

[Luckypants]

That article says what I have been saying. It is recommended to keep your state of charge (according to the article) at 40-80%. BEV manufacturers say the same thing more or less, to keep SoC at 20-80% (Tesla would say 10-90%) for day to day driving in order to prolong battery life. This is not imposed by the BMS (battery management system) of the car, it is a choice the user can make. All BEVs will have a charging control menu that allows you specify the max SoC for any particular charging session - the software makes a suggestion on 80% usually. Most people allow that to default to 80% as that is enough for daily needs. For a long trip, charge to 100% timed to complete just before leaving to get maximum range.

There are additional buffers imposed by the BMS of 1 or 2 Kwh at the top and bottom of the battery capacity, to prevent overcharging or complete discharge. Hence ID.3 has usable battery of 77Kwh from total of 82Kwh in my previous example. So you do not lose 20% of capacity as you stated.

That article also talks about trickling in the charge in the top 20% to extend battery lifespan, which is what the BMS does in EVs. When rapid charging, it is better to leave with 80% to get to the next charger than to hang on the extra time to top up to 100% at a low charge rate. When you see a car will charge at 150kw that is the max charge rate, but the BMS will start throttling that down from 40% SoC or so until at higher SoC it will only be charging at 5-10Kw. Better to leave with an 80% battery and drive to the next charger or destination than wait a long time for not a lot of gain.

[Sir Trev]

I cannot keep up with this thread, especially at beer o'clock on a Friday after a hard week at work. To answer a query from two pages back (sorry, I forgot who posed it) our old friend Brettus had a BMW i3 I believe. Unfortunately we've not seen him on here for quite a while now.

[gadget]

My mrs works for Nissan and I have been lucky enough to have tested the new 'leaf', must say I was very much impressed with it overall, very torquey, smooth, very quiet ( road noise wise) and even managed to get a smidge under 240 miles on one charge! And that was driving as I normally do our insignia diesel.
We even thought of perhaps buying one but the cost is astronomical if with her employee discount, I think the best way forward if considering one of these cars is to lease it, sure .. you'll never own it but then you won't have to take the massive hit come sale time.

[DJ123]

with time the cost of them should come down, as the technology will be wider spread and more common by then.

So your current EV's like the Leaf, Honda E, Mini E and so on rather than being 30k+, they should be more like 20k/equivalent to the ICE cost. Then it makes it more attainable to the average motorist - if the range & infrastructure is up to scratch by then too.

[Bibio]

with time the cost of them should come down, as the technology will be wider spread and more common by then.

dont hold you breath. has the cost of fossil fuel cars ever come down, no it just keep rising. window sticker prices have rocketed in the past 5 years to a point they are forcing people to go PCP as there is a massive profit to be made. the same will be true for leccy cars and you wont be able to actually buy one and everybody will be forced to go lease/pcp.


dont know if its still true but when you buy a leccy car you have to lease the battery's separate?


think i'll buy a horse and cart :geek:

[johnnyrod]

All interesting stuff, I didn't know about the UK energy mix and the g/km of electric. Regarding banning of gas boilers, the idea is to use heat pumps instead, where the heating capacity is determined by its COP which is a multiplier, so e.g. a 10kW heat pump with a COP of 2.5 uses 10kW of power but provides 25kW of heat. They're about 5x the cost of a boiler though and better suit things like underfloor heating.
I've got a Toyota hybrid now, it's not perfect but it gets 55mpg which is a lot better than what it replaced. Battery would be nice but the purchase price is horrendous, as said above. I'm still unsure about battery leasing, I don't think you do any more.

[Seeker]

think i'll buy a horse and cart :geek:

wait till you see the vet's bill for colic and then the farrier's bill for re-shoeing every 6 weeks :(

[DJ123]

dont hold you breath. has the cost of fossil fuel cars ever come down, no it just keep rising. window sticker prices have rocketed in the past 5 years to a point they are forcing people to go PCP as there is a massive profit to be made. the same will be true for leccy cars and you wont be able to actually buy one and everybody will be forced to go lease/pcp.


dont know if its still true but when you buy a leccy car you have to lease the battery's separate?


think i'll buy a horse and cart :geek:

Cars can be made cheap, but with all the new tech being added they only get more expensive due to the R&D involved.

Look at basic cars like Dacia, no fancy stuff just a basic A to B car, which is a low price compared to others with toys added.

[Sir Trev]

High Wycombe now has an electric vehicle hire scheme. On my daily walk the other day I noticed parking bays for them in several places and today the vehicles have now been placed out and available for use. Alas they are e-scooters from Zipp Mobility and I've already had some spotty Herbert student-type come at me on one on the pavement...

I don't buy the local paper any more but I can imagine the letters page will be full of grumpy people moaning about them.

[DJ123]

High Wycombe now has an electric vehicle hire scheme. On my daily walk the other day I noticed parking bays for them in several places and today the vehicles have now been placed out and available for use. Alas they are e-scooters from Zipp Mobility and I've already had some spotty Herbert student-type come at me on one on the pavement...

I don't buy the local paper any more but I can imagine the letters page will be full of grumpy people moaning about them.

I find the E-scooter situation odd. Seeing as they are not legal to be used in any public environment. Yet, they can be hired out . . .

[admin]

I find the E-scooter situation odd. Seeing as they are not legal to be used in any public environment. Yet, they can be hired out . . .I find that odd too. I think it's so the hirer is licenced and insured.

Sent from my SM-T510 using Tapatalk

[admin]

BBBCclick have done a piece on EV's this week. It'll be on iplayer and YT.
Click, The Electric Vehicle Revolution: www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m000pr0y via @bbciplayer

Sent from my SM-T510 using Tapatalk

[DJ123]

This Video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eaE57tChPQM) is a good watch, Chris Harris talking to a guy from the National Grid about EV's

[Luckypants]

dont know if its still true but when you buy a leccy car you have to lease the battery's separate? That was the Leaf and early Zoe's, but now the battery comes as part of the vehicle. It was to counteract the perceived view that EV batteries will be toast in a few years. That myth has now been put to bed.

TBH it was the battery lease thing put us off the Zoe when we needed a new small car 4 years ago. I was thinking that we'd keep it until retirement (15 years) then sell as a cheap small car to a new driver / cheap second car - but who would buy it with a £70 a month lease on the battery? Plus, £70 buys a lot more petrol than we use in the Citigo we bought in the end.

[daktulos]

https://www.transportenvironment.org/press/plug-hybrids-new-emissions-scandal-tests-show-higher-pollution-claimed

Sales of plug-in hybrid vehicles are skyrocketing in Europe, but tests on the newest models confirm they pollute the climate far more than carmakers claim – even when starting with a full battery. Three of the most popular plug-ins in 2020 all emitted more CO2 than advertised, when tested in the real world, just as research on older PHEVs has shown.

Shocking ... but unsurprising.

[Adam Ef]

I find that odd too. I think it's so the hirer is licenced and insured.

Sent from my SM-T510 using Tapatalk


As far as I know the hire ones are the first ones that are legal. They're allowed anywhere you can ride a bicycle. Only becuase the company hiring is responsible for them and they are legit speed and power limted within regulations. Most of the ones that are around (there's a lot of others in Bristol) are not legal as they aren't limited. I regularly see a couple of people pass our shop each afternoon going incredibly fast up the main road overtaking all the other traffic!

[shiftin_gear98]

I saw a kid on one of these a few weeks ago.
They looked really good fun and I was up for getting one, until I googled it and saw the price.

https://www.rideandglide.co.uk/product/onewheel-xr-electric-skateboard/?gclid=CjwKCAiA-_L9BRBQEiwA-bm5fk_VwxUAwZBWtNUyKLHPepY6H0oPAeBuCVeYEJWqOlZebEB D1owA-BoC23gQAvD_BwE

Too much for a toy.

[Dave20046]

As far as I know the hire ones are the first ones that are legal. They're allowed anywhere you can ride a bicycle. Only becuase the company hiring is responsible for them and they are legit speed and power limted within regulations. Most of the ones that are around (there's a lot of others in Bristol) are not legal as they aren't limited. I regularly see a couple of people pass our shop each afternoon going incredibly fast up the main road overtaking all the other traffic!

They are amazing fun, I used them a lot in Europe last year as they were cheaper than ubers. The speed and distance you can cover on them is amazing, may have done an airport run :safe:
If it means less traffic on the road I think they're a good idea for big cities, definitely dangerous though.

[Dave20046]

I saw a kid on one of these a few weeks ago.
They looked really good fun and I was up for getting one, until I googled it and saw the price.

https://www.rideandglide.co.uk/product/onewheel-xr-electric-skateboard/?gclid=CjwKCAiA-_L9BRBQEiwA-bm5fk_VwxUAwZBWtNUyKLHPepY6H0oPAeBuCVeYEJWqOlZebEB D1owA-BoC23gQAvD_BwE

Too much for a toy.
I saw a bloke on one of those and didn't realise it was electric , embarrassingly.
To be fair he was going down hill though.

[SV650rules]

This is a lot cheaper... https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07LFGX4JW/ref=sspa_dk_detail_2?psc=1&pd_rd_i=B07LFGX4JW&pd_rd_w=Zgt9U&pf_rd_p=7d37a48b-2b1a-4373-8c1a-bdcc5da66be9&pd_rd_wg=BzRMn&pf_rd_r=VE8XVTJ5KJ25K3P10PX0&pd_rd_r=b3555dfc-3b65-45db-873e-fb0aeda228ac&spLa=ZW5jcnlwdGVkUXVhbGlmaWVyPUFYQ1MxM1FaTVQ0SU0mZ W5jcnlwdGVkSWQ9QTA1MjMwMTVBVjI0UUdEMUMzRkYmZW5jcnl wdGVkQWRJZD1BMDkwNjE4OTFHWEE1WExFSEJXMDcmd2lkZ2V0T mFtZT1zcF9kZXRhaWwmYWN0aW9uPWNsaWNrUmVkaXJlY3QmZG9 Ob3RMb2dDbGljaz10cnVl

[shiftin_gear98]

Doesn't look as much fun though.

[Ruffy]

I'm late to the thread but I find this whole debate intriguing. What I find interesting is the polarised nature of the debate about EVs. 'Marmite'-esque, it seems you've got to love 'em or hate 'em.

Personally, I don't get it. I don't understand why electric cars are always styled to look futuristic. Electric motive power has been around for over a century and I think it's brilliant. Think trains, trams, trolley buses etc., back to the late 1800s many have been electric driven.

Electric drive control systems are ten-a-penny, with the right size hardware you can pretty much programme whatever power/torque curve you want, re-generative braking is available. I was dealing with it in factory production line environments over 20 years ago now. Surely the drive train stuff is well-proven tech and should be easy to implement.

For me the only evolving technology issue for cars/bikes is carrying the power source instead of having a mains connection - batteries. Which leads on to the weight, space, charging & infrastructure questions. Though knowing what I know about electricity supply industry, I don't think there's insumountable problems there. There are certainly some very savvy people working on it.

Then there's the cost of vehicles ... well beyond my pocket and likely to remain that way for a long time.

Why can't we like good examples of electric and internal combustion, like I do? I'll always love the sound and peculiarities of a good IC engine e.g. Subaru/VW/Porsche boxer, an American/Euro V8, a Suzuki V-twin etc. But quite frankly a decent electro-mechanical drivetrain should blow most of them away performance-wise and that's what I want.

I wonder how long before marketeers cotton on to the concept of selectable simulated engine types? (No longer will it just be eco/touring/sport/race mode!)

If I could afford the lump-sum cost to buy, I'd happily have an electric car and put up with the increased journey planning constraints to get over 'range-anxiety'. But I'd rather retro-fit and upgrade my current car than have any one of the crop of currently available new EVs (yes, including Tesla's). Boost my 162bhp 56-plate Subaru Legacy Estate to potentially behave like a Spec-B or Impreza WRX and I'd be happy. I simply don't want a complex future-concept cabin and the pretence that this is new tech - behind the wheel I'm a luddite old git who wants a traditional (but reasonably high performance) driving experience.

Just my two'penneth!:)

[embee]

I agree with Ruffy above, the use of battery vehicles in the right environment makes huge sense. However there is also a good argument for not getting rid of fossil fuel IC engines in certain applications, at least not as some blanket prohibition anyway.
The heavy goods transport business is a good candidate to continue with the diesel engine for some time to come. A Tesla battery weighs in at 500kg, a battery for a 40+tonne LGV would be in the region of 4tonnes to get a decent range, which means a loss of potential payload and thus increased number of vehicles (in theory). Also the charging power requirement for a truck park overnight would be monumental, you're into significant proportions of a power station output to charge a few dozen trucks in 8hrs. A large truck diesel being used on long-haul trips is pretty efficient (CO2 per tonne.mile), and the national generating efficiency would have to be improved very substantially to make significant gains in CO2, so why not just accept the use of diesel for LGVs for the forseeable future and concentrate on other more cost effective areas. Ban diesels from urban areas and use electric delivery locally, no issues there.
Again on the CO2 count, it's all well and good doing the sums for the UK, Scandinavia or France for example where we have relatively low CO2 electricity generation, but places like China, India, even Germany/Poland, have pretty high CO2/kWh electricity generation while still using coal, so they aren't saving CO2 with BEVs. It might well save toxic pollution in cities however, where it really is a horrendous problem, like Beijing etc.
The choice of energy source for vehicles really is only a matter of practicality, starting from scratch you probably wouldn't think that burning HC in a vehicle is a particularly smart idea, all that heat and fluids to deal with. Electricity is so much simpler if you can sort the storage/supply of energy to the vehicle (dodgems anyone?).

[SV650rules]

Fossil fuels freed humans from a subsistence existence at the mercy of nature. We should not be in a big hurry to ditch them. As embee says we need some common sense and practical thinking, a good point about weight of battery for an HGV cutting down payload, and unlike a fuel tank batteries do not get any lighter as you use the energy in them. Unfortunately politicians are not good at practical thinking, they skip from policy to policy without deep thought. A good example is wind power, quite a few times in last few months we have had days on end where it has been cold and still, and wind has contributed less than 2% to our grid, and at this time of year solar is useless, so gas, nuclear and biomass has been maxed out to cover the absence of renewables. Look at https://gridwatch.templar.co.uk site that shows both instantaneous and historical data for UK demand and the contribution of various forms of generation- it is shocking how variable wind and solar are, you obviously need to build far more renewables than you need, cross your fingers and hope that on bad days you will get something, while on a good day most of the fans on sticks will be idle, with the grid ( and the customer = you and me ) paying them NOT to generate....great innit....

[Luckypants]

I agree that renewables are very variable and cannot be relied on to be generating when there is demand. This week has been an absolute case in point - the windmills up the road from us have been stationary almost the whole time.

The challenge for the UK (and the world) is to find a way to store renewable energy when there is surplus and use that surplus when there is too much demand. For instance the wind still blows at night, but few people need the electricity it generates. Big batteries is one solution, just see the difference those made to the power grid in Western Australia. Pumped storage hydro is another, as these can come online rapidly. The big idea seems to be large grid interconnectors, so when we have no wind we get power from another country that has surplus and pay it back when the shoe is on the other foot. Norway are going for this in a big way to become the 'battery of Europe' by using excess energy from other countries to pump water uphill in pumped hydro schemes and then release it again when needed abroad.

We just need to get through the period of not enough renewable generation and infrastructure to make it work, where we are still reliant on CCGT electricity. I hope that the government's 10 year plan will achieve this - because no matter what you think, we cannot go on just burning stuff for transport and power.

[SV650rules]

I think it is funny the way greenies used to hate pylons and say they were ugly and demand to have the cables buried underground at 10 to 20x the cost, now they are quite happy to have ugly, noisy fans on sticks in most of the beautiful places in the UK.... and the dead birds at the bottom of every pylon. The people looking after the big focused mirror solar generators in California etc were intrigued to see puffs of flame and smoke in the air, turned out it was birds flying into the focused beams, some of them quite big birds like eagles, the heat just burned their feather off and cooked them - it seems whatever man does it is never harmless to something.

https://www.latimes.com/local/california/la-me-solar-bird-deaths-20160831-snap-story.html

[Bibio]

i can see us drilling into the magma and using 'thermal energy' like Iceland does. the Pacific ring would be a perfect place for the likes of North and South America's and Japan, New Zealand and all those volcanic islands.


only problem doing the above is it not generating enough jobs like renewable does at the moment.


a car in the future is only going to be a rich persons luxuary and all the rest of us mortals will have to put up with mass transportation such as buss, shuttle and train and push bikes etc.etc.


btw what is going to happen to aviation and ocean going when the oil runs out? we had better start producing our own goods now so less reliance on such places as China........ make toys not guns.

[SV650rules]

btw what is going to happen to aviation and ocean going when the oil runs out? we had better start producing our own goods now so less reliance on such places as China........ make toys not guns.


We will have electric planes carrying so much battery weight that they can only carry two people, the pilot and one other - and they will only have a range of 50 miles.....

Oil will not run out anytime soon, but with governments thinking the way they do there is no incentive for companies to finance expensive exploration to find any more, you can make oil from coal anyway. I see a new coal mine has opened in Cumbria recently, and not before time, now all we need is someone amongst the snowflake / millennial generation willing to get their hands dirty - don't hold your breath - it they can't do it on a phone or laptop they don't even consider it.

My mate used to have a saying about greenies - he often said 'I hope they all freeze to death in the dark' - priceless.

[Grant66]

I think it is funny the way greenies used to hate pylons and say they were ugly and demand to have the cables buried underground at 10 to 20x the cost, now they are quite happy to have ugly, noisy fans on sticks in most of the beautiful places in the UK.... and the dead birds at the bottom of every pylon. The people looking after the big focused mirror solar generators in California etc were intrigued to see puffs of flame and smoke in the air, turned out it was birds flying into the focused beams, some of them quite big birds like eagles, the heat just burned their feather off and cooked them - it seems whatever man does it is never harmless to something.

https://www.latimes.com/local/california/la-me-solar-bird-deaths-20160831-snap-story.html

55millon birds killed annually by domestic cats (in UK). The best thing for the birds would be to burn cats to generate electricity [emoji3]


Sent from an S20 using Tapatalk with that kin cr4p blocked

[SV650rules]

55millon birds killed annually by domestic cats (in UK). The best thing for the birds would be to burn cats to generate electricity [emoji3]


Sent from an S20 using Tapatalk with that kin cr4p blocked

Agree entirely although cat owners would say their cat would not hurt a fly... a cat hardly likely to kill a hawk or eagle ( except a puma )..

[admin]

Did you guys see this?
https://www.theguardian.com/money/2020/nov/28/electric-cars-porsche-charging-network?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other

Sent from my SM-T510 using Tapatalk

[Seeker]

Did you guys see this?
https://www.theguardian.com/money/2020/nov/28/electric-cars-porsche-charging-network?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other

Sent from my SM-T510 using Tapatalk

sounds like another world beater like Test and Trace. Are Serco involved?

[SV650rules]

Gotta laugh, but it is our money they are wasting on virtue signalling

https://metro.co.uk/2019/12/24/police-spend-1500000-electric-cars-slow-catch-criminals-11956349/


They are buying electric ambulances as well, hardly any good for emergencies

[DJ123]

Gotta laugh, but it is our money they are wasting on virtue signalling

https://metro.co.uk/2019/12/24/police-spend-1500000-electric-cars-slow-catch-criminals-11956349/


They are buying electric ambulances as well, hardly any good for emergencies

They're going to have exercise bikes in the bike that generate power. The faster you pedal, the faster the Nee Naw goes :smt079

[Bibio]

30p a KW.... WTF.


why cant they include the fast charger on the car, that way you could plug in anywhere you want...


electric vehicles are a shambles.

[Luckypants]

Did you guys see this?
https://www.theguardian.com/money/2020/nov/28/electric-cars-porsche-charging-network?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other

Sent from my SM-T510 using Tapatalk

But in the hands of someone who knows what they are doing....

https://youtu.be/7C-dSOf0jp4

[admin]

That's on my watch list.

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[DJ123]

Did you guys see this?
https://www.theguardian.com/money/2020/nov/28/electric-cars-porsche-charging-network?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other

Sent from my SM-T510 using Tapatalk

It highlights the issue with the infrastructure. It's getting better (as seen the vid posted further down) but it's no where near as good as it needs to be/on par with what Tesla offer.

[Luckypants]

The current CCS infrastructure far outweighs the Tesla super charging infrastructure. The early ecotricity chargers are very unreliable and because they are mainly at motorway services they get bad press. Even here in Wales I have a rapid charger just 10 miles away. My nearest Tesla charger is 40 miles away by the M6.

The point is, in an electric vehicle change your thinking and don't drive it like a fossil car. It's like your phone, charge overnight and always have enough charge for the day. It's only occasionally you need to charge out and about and you can plan that.

[Bibio]

all very well saying charge it overnight. most people dont have a drive so are we going to get a charge point in every single parking bay that has all the propriety connections? what happens to those people that cant get an on street 'charge bay', its bad enough at the moment trying to get parked on the street. you will then get vandalised charging points etc.etc. its the UK not Canada.


are the charge cable/handles going to be lockable?

[embee]

..... you will then get vandalised charging points etc.etc. its the UK not Canada.
....are the charge cable/handles going to be lockable?
That's the stuff which has gone through my mind. How are the scallies going to vandalise stuff? Who's going to be the first to try cutting through a charging cable just to see what happens? Imagine the yoofs running down the street after a Friday night unplugging all the cars. Superglue in the sockets. I'm sure someone will come up with a way to clone a car's signature to "steal" electricity and put it on your account. Think about the keyless entry scammers stealing Mercs and Audis with a laptop and some far eastern software. Think about the scumbags sawing catalysts off cars in a few seconds using cordless tools.
If something can be vandalised/stolen, it will be. The manufacturers must think like the lowlife to protect stuff, but even then some of them will be one step ahead ......

[DJ123]

The current CCS infrastructure far outweighs the Tesla super charging infrastructure. The early ecotricity chargers are very unreliable and because they are mainly at motorway services they get bad press. Even here in Wales I have a rapid charger just 10 miles away. My nearest Tesla charger is 40 miles away by the M6.

The point is, in an electric vehicle change your thinking and don't drive it like a fossil car. It's like your phone, charge overnight and always have enough charge for the day. It's only occasionally you need to charge out and about and you can plan that.

Everyone has a car for different uses. I have a larger BMW Touring because most of my driving is long distance, some hundreds of miles. Some at short notice, some planned ahead of time.
A car is a tool, it needs to do the purpose it is designed for/the reason i have purchased it.
No Electric car (currently) can compete with my 3L Diesel on a journey to Scotland. I can do it in circa 5 hours, on 2/3 of a tank of fuel. The weak spot in the car is me, i'm the only reason i need to stop. An Electric vehicle will need a charge half way and then again at the end. Which would add a minimum of 2 hours to the journey - each way. So on a 10 hour trip for ICE, it would be at least 14 hours in an EV.
An EV needs to be able to replace the ICE and do it in a way which enhances the experience in a seamless manner. I've never gone to a petrol station and found them all out of order, or not working. I've never not thought about using the AC/Heating/Wipers/Seat heating in my car incase i effect the range of my vehicles fuel tank.
I'm all for EV's, when they are able to compete with replacing an ICE on their capabilities (even if the infrastructure was complete).

[timwilky]

Ok, I know I am late to the debate, so my 10 pence worth of opinion.


The part everyone misses. yes many can charge over night, but do people do the total load calculation. Estates locally are now 5-800 houses, 2-3 cars each all needing to charge. The electricity distribution infrastructure just isn't upto it. One of my local clowncils had to abandon their new all electric vehicle policy when they discovered they could not install charger capacity for all their proposed vehicles in the works compound. The feed was not sufficient and several hundred thousand to run new cables.

The terraced street where my daughter lives built about 1850 got electricity about 1930. When she moved in 18 months ago she had problems and her electrician had to call in the local electricity board as that 1930 infrastructure was only delivering about 190v. they had to recable to the mains fuse digging up the street and some of her floor. I would guess 80% of the local infrastructure where she lives is out of spec.
She currently has a Ford Kuga and her partner a Nissan Navara. Her daily commute is 120 miles. His can be 50-500 miles depending where he is visiting that day. They struggle to get one vehicle outside the house, 2 would be a miracle so little chance of home charging. Everyone on their street plugged in asking to overload the old infrastructure.

I am no longer the road warrior I was leaving home at 5am and returning at 9pm. But for those that are having to stop for a couple of hours to recharge is going to add up. putting them over their working hours and requiring overnight stops.

I have worked with Hydrogen fuel cells a couple of years ago. I see hydrogen as the way forward. although not efficient excess renewable could drive hydrogen production. And as far renewable why not more use of tidal. That is at least predictable and guaranteed! I saw 1 MW tidal in operation and plans to develop test farms to understand the disruption caused but all seems abandoned.

[Bibio]

politicians are being advised by people with vested interest.

[SV650rules]

If something can be vandalised/stolen, it will be. The manufacturers must think like the lowlife to protect stuff, but even then some of them will be one step ahead ......

Correct, the scallies will be nicking the copper charging leads and uprooting the chargers, and before you know it they will be in a container headfing for sale in other countries. The only reason petrol pumps don't get nicked and vandalised is that they are on secure sites, many running 24/7 and they all have CCTV, try putting CCTV on every charging point in UK, especially when they start using lamp post chargers. Not to mention a trade in stolen charging card details to get power on somebody elses account...

[embee]

...We are lucky in UK to get 80 or 100 amp supply to our houses ( at least the more modern ones ) I read that in Spain they are sometimes lucky to get 13 amps.....
In France you pay for a tariff according to what max power/current you want, the lower the cheaper. I guess modern houses tend to be higher, but it certainly wasn't uncommon back in the day for the supply to be 3kW/13A.

It is a bit of a reality check to consider what the effective equivalent "power" is for refuelling with petrol or diesel. A typical forecourt petrol pump delivery is around 30 or 40 lt/min (commercials a bit more). Petrol contains around 43MJ/kg, which is a bit over 30MJ/litre round figures. So at 35 lt/min and 30MJ/lt that's over 1000MJ/min, or 16MJ/sec (=16MW or 16,000kW)
A petrol engine might average out at around 25% thermal efficiency, so taking that into account to compare fairly with a BEV, you'd still be looking at about 4MW (4,000kW) to recharge a BEV at the same "effective" rate as refuelling a petrol car. That's never going to happen.
I don't know what the maximum realistic charge rate could be for a BEV in the future, battery/charging technology permitting, but if it ever got anywhere near that I'd be extremely surprised.
It does put charging rates into perspective. There's a lot of energy in petrol.

[DJ123]

In France you pay for a tariff according to what max power/current you want, the lower the cheaper. I guess modern houses tend to be higher, but it certainly wasn't uncommon back in the day for the supply to be 3kW/13A.

It is a bit of a reality check to consider what the effective equivalent "power" is for refuelling with petrol or diesel. A typical forecourt petrol pump delivery is around 30 or 40 lt/min (commercials a bit more). Petrol contains around 43MJ/kg, which is a bit over 30MJ/litre round figures. So at 35 lt/min and 30MJ/lt that's over 1000MJ/min, or 16MJ/sec (=16MW or 16,000kW)
A petrol engine might average out at around 25% thermal efficiency, so taking that into account to compare fairly with a BEV, you'd still be looking at about 4MW (4,000kW) to recharge a BEV at the same "effective" rate as refuelling a petrol car. That's never going to happen.
I don't know what the maximum realistic charge rate could be for a BEV in the future, battery/charging technology permitting, but if it ever got anywhere near that I'd be extremely surprised.
It does put charging rates into perspective. There's a lot of energy in petrol.

If you watch a video on the Harrys Garage YT channel about the Porsche Taycan, he goes to charge it at a 'pay at pump' electric charger. I don't know the day or time of day he charges it but the cost was 10p a mile (25 miles added, at a cost of £2.50). Which is the rough equivalent cost of an ICE that does circa 50MPG. Most modern cars are not far off that in the equivalent combustion fuel cost.

[Ruffy]

The part everyone misses. yes many can charge over night, but do people do the total load calculation. Estates locally are now 5-800 houses, 2-3 cars each all needing to charge. The electricity distribution infrastructure just isn't up to it.
I tend to agree. Although I would expect most vehicles to only need charging once or twice a week. (12000 miles/year = approx. 230 miles/week, and 200-250 miles is a typical quoted car range per charge.)

We are lucky in UK to get 80 or 100 amp supply to our houses ( at least the more modern ones ) I read that in Spain they are sometimes lucky to get 13 amps.....
Though just hope everyone doesn't try to pull to 80-100A at once! There's a big difference between peak capacity and average demand and you may be surprised to learn how little you use on average.

... but it certainly wasn't uncommon back in the day for the supply to be 3kW/13A.
It's been a while but I used to work for a distribution company. We used to have a simple rule of thumb of 1.5kW per house when initially doing cable sizing calculations for overlaying old knackered or inadequate mains (sometimes down to 1kW if mains gas was available - netting off heating/cooking load you see). The effects of demand factor and diversity are very real. Very rarely did the fault teams get called out for distributor fuses at substations or feeder pillars blowing due to 'natural' overload from cumulative draw.

Compare it to your own bill: 1kW = approx. 4.3A at 230V - At 24/7 continuous average that's probably £100-120 per month which I think is a sizeable domestic bill for electricity.

By my calculation, based on a quick google search, a Tesla electric car battery is around 80-100kWh, so that's c. 8-10kW power demand required for a full overnight charge (keeping maths simple, assuming 10 hours duration). Add that up for multiple vehicles and there is a huge demand, especially when you compare to current typical average levels. If each vehicle is broadly equivalent to 3-4 houses, then it becomes clear that many concurrent vehicle charging loads of that or more do present a big problem for electricity supply industry at local distribution level.

[ethariel]

Kent have just set up a services framework for the installation of new EV charging points to cover 156 sites - no idea as to how many charging points per site but time will tell.

[Luckypants]

The weak spot in the car is me, i'm the only reason i need to stop. An Electric vehicle will need a charge half way and then again at the end. Which would add a minimum of 2 hours to the journey - each way. So on a 10 hour trip for ICE, it would be at least 14 hours in an EV.

I completely take your points on EVs needing to take on ICE vehicles on a level playing field. However, your point above about the human being the weak link is the reason some EVs can compete with ICE over a long distance. Charge your car when you need a pee/food/poo break. If leaving home with a full charge, the best long distance EV will go 4 hours on a motorway. Charge at a very fast charger while you go pee and the car will gain 200+ miles. As you pointed out, you bought your 5 series Beemer to do distances, so a Tesla is a fair comparison (longest range) - the Model S can do 400 miles on a charge (claimed) and will put 200 miles of range on in a 30 minute charge at the fastest chargers. A more affordable option, the ID.3 will do a claimed 340 miles on a charge and will put 160 miles in a 30 minute charge the fastest chargers.

I would venture a pee stop from walking from the car, doing it, washing hands etc, walking back is 15-20 minutes? Not there yet, but getting there.

I realise that the long range models tend to be the luxury vehicles and for that reason very expensive, but it does show what is possible. Even if they are not affordable for most of us.