View Full Version : Electric Vehicles
Dave20046
25-03-21, 08:57 AM
Looks great LP. Love the excitement of a new vehicle! If I'm not imagining being on the road I'm normally thinking up tweaks for it, I was about to say not a lot you can do with a new car - but you mentioned detailers?!
Luckypants
25-03-21, 09:20 AM
If you are on Facebook this link should work...
https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=489484429081018&id=107817563914375
Dave20046
25-03-21, 06:04 PM
V shiny! Brings out the goooold
always believe id
svenrico
25-03-21, 08:44 PM
The brake lights operate when braking force goes above a certain amount. My wife followed me home from picking it up and said I seemed to be using the brakes a lot, but I wasn't.
It doesn't check the rear camera for hazards before braking as far as I'm aware :D
I am just a bit wary of these cars that decide how you drive. Mind you ,it might have saved me an SP30 in Dorset a few years ago ! ( if it could have spotted the small 30 limit sign that is !)
Very nice, I like the colour too. Harry's Garage reviewed the id3 recently, he was impressed too. His car seemed to have a warning buzzer if both hands weren't on the steering wheel. It's that a thing or did I imagine it?
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Luckypants
26-03-21, 10:51 AM
Its part of the lane keep assist system. Detects if you are moving the wheel or not. No movements indicate not holding or fallen asleep/passed out, so shakes the wheel and eventually a buzzer goes off. If no response at the wheel, that car should stop on the assumption of driver emergency. Lots of cars have this now.
Craig380
26-03-21, 11:39 AM
Which model did you go for, powertrain-wise?
Until last July I had a 225xe plug-in hybrid as a company car, which I absolutely loved. In 'sport' mode the petrol engine and electric motor combined to give the full 225bhp and 285 lb-ft of torque with 4WD traction, and (literally) electric throttle response. It gave fantastic overtaking punch, making it a very quick car on A- and B-roads. I never, ever got tired of that instant go.
Luckypants
26-03-21, 12:00 PM
Currently only one power train available on the ID4. That is the 204bhp RWD drive model with the 82kWh battery (77kWh usable). If we are going to discuss the ID.4, may I suggest we move over the electric vehicle thread to avoid hijacking this one?
BoltonSte
26-03-21, 12:47 PM
Developed at Manchester university wasn't it? Thought there were all sorts of possible uses for it ! The cost might be a problem though.
What were you trialling it for ?
No not pencils - Felt tips.
As is often the case it was discovered before any real world applications and they're still trying to find out what it can do.
I know that it is being used in things which need to be conductive which typically required a lot of Carbon to do so. Thinks flammable liquid transfer.
I was looking at a similar application (new to our field), got it to work, but ahead of it's time.
I've seen the battery example at UofM.
UofM are looking at conductive inks for security applications.
There was talk of touch screen type tech, using it to protect as it should be hard wearing. World is your mollusc of choice, although it's not that easy to work with, takes a lot of energy to make and the commercial material isn't the "1 molecule thick flat sheet" that was touted originally.
Could be of interest
https://scitechdaily.com/big-breakthrough-for-massless-energy-storage-structural-battery-that-performs-10x-better-than-all-previous-versions/
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SV650rules
28-03-21, 11:36 AM
Could be of interest
https://scitechdaily.com/big-breakthrough-for-massless-energy-storage-structural-battery-that-performs-10x-better-than-all-previous-versions/
So if the vehicle body is the battery, when the battery fails the whole vehicle body has to be replaced ? In the event of a crash the electrolyte spills out all over everything ?
Luckypants
28-03-21, 12:11 PM
Interesting article and reflects the way things are moving.
Tesla has announced it's next move forward will be structural batteries, but nothing on the battery chemistry to make that happen (announced at Tesla battery day). VW expect solid state batteries to be available in the second half of this decade and will transition to their use in the 2030's (announced at the VW Power Day presentation). I expect the Korean manaufaturers to surprise us with innovations, like they have by going to 800V packs on the new Kia EV6 and Hyundai Ioniq 5. I think solid state batteries and structural batteries will be hand in hand.
Dunno about the electrolyte, but I would think these will be solid state by the time this comes to pass. There has already been many accidents involving EVs where the batteries have been damaged, not heard of problems with electrolyte leaking. Surely the risk of leaking electrolyte is no worse than the risk of leaking petrol or diesel?
I would imagine the Acid is a lot more corrosive and dangerous to everything it comes into contact with, more so than combustable fuels. Also, the lack of fluid would lead to a higher chance of fire & these current Lithium-Ion batteries are already a risk as the fire spreads from one pack to another with no way of stopping it - except drowning it in water for 24 hours.
Luckypants
28-03-21, 01:11 PM
Is there acid in lithium ion batteries?
SV650rules
28-03-21, 05:06 PM
It is the flammable and toxic lithium and the amount of energy stored in the batteries - lithium is an alkaline metal which in the presence of water can produce hydrogen gas. 400 to 800 volt battery packs in vehicles also pose an electrocution risk - firemen need to wear full self-contained breathing apparatus when tackling lithium battery fires, the fumes are very toxic. As said earlier by DJ123 it can take 24 hours to extinguish a lithium battery fire. A few years ago a grid storage battery in USA exploded, took days to extinguish and massive explosions killed four firefighters. Non of the multiple fire prevention systems worked and there was a runaway fire.
https://www.msamlin.com/content/ms-amlin/consumer/en/chart-hub/english/lithium-ion-batteries-have-you-considered-the-risks.html
svenrico
28-03-21, 07:05 PM
It is the flammable and toxic lithium and the amount of energy stored in the batteries - lithium is an alkaline metal which in the presence of water can produce hydrogen gas. 400 to 800 volt battery packs in vehicles also pose an electrocution risk - firemen need to wear full self-contained breathing apparatus when tackling lithium battery fires, the fumes are very toxic. As said earlier by DJ123 it can take 24 hours to extinguish a lithium battery fire. A few years ago a grid storage battery in USA exploded, took days to extinguish and massive explosions killed four firefighters. Non of the multiple fire prevention systems worked and there was a runaway fire.
https://www.msamlin.com/content/ms-amlin/consumer/en/chart-hub/english/lithium-ion-batteries-have-you-considered-the-risks.html
Sounds as though it could be a bit dodgy for electric vehicles involved in collisions then !
One of the earlier problems with Li batteries was dendrite formation. These were crystal-like growths on one electrode which would pierce the membrane separating the electrodes and the subsequent short circuit would cause a fire - remember the battery issues with the Boeing 787 introduction? If a battery pack gets mechanically pierced in an accident the same thing can happen.
On the other hand if a car petrol tank gets pierced there's a risk of fire, too.
Switched reluctance motor. No, I hadn't heard of them either, they don't use rare earth metals:
https://uk.finance.yahoo.com/news/british-firm-cracks-electric-car-152144501.html
Luckypants
01-04-21, 07:53 AM
It had to come I suppose....
https://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/fp/news/highlands/3020257/electric-avenue-nc500/?fbclid=IwAR0u4J2BddiDSFOj4rk8GzSHuOThGXyIIyp5YFcj 0PmDsl3QxmEByQ0WS6Q
Craig380
01-04-21, 07:58 AM
It's one of the better ones I've seen so far :)
It's hard to tell fact from fiction these days especially on April 1st.
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Luckypants
01-04-21, 09:16 AM
It's hard to tell fact from fiction these days especially on April 1st.
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:p
SV650rules
01-04-21, 05:36 PM
It's hard to tell fact from fiction these days especially on April 1st.
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The fact that it involved Scotland made it very believable - kind of thing the SNP and their green allies are likely to do..
SV650rules
01-04-21, 05:40 PM
Switched reluctance motor. No, I hadn't heard of them either, they don't use rare earth metals:
https://uk.finance.yahoo.com/news/british-firm-cracks-electric-car-152144501.html
Our 15 year old washing machine has one, bit of torque ripple at lower speeds. Like an upmarket stepper motor.
Switched reluctance motor. No, I hadn't heard of them either, they don't use rare earth metals:
https://uk.finance.yahoo.com/news/british-firm-cracks-electric-car-152144501.html
Wow, bit of a blast from the past for me. There was a research group in my department at University of Leeds developing these back in the early 90s.
Feels a bit of a stretch to claim that lack of magnets is a breakthrough, though. Bear in mind that regular induction motors don't need permanent magnets. Even regular DC motors can have a wound field core (although does then require slip rings and brushes). Variable speed drives for both these motor types are quite mature technology, too.
svenrico
01-04-21, 07:44 PM
The fact that it involved Scotland made it very believable - kind of thing the SNP and their green allies are likely to do..
Yes, I believed it at first, but there are less likely things !
SV650rules
13-04-21, 01:16 PM
Interesting - hydrogen fuel cell powered motorbike
https://fuelcellsworks.com/news/segway-announces-futuristic-apex-h2-hydrogen-fuel-cell-powered-motorcycle/
Luckypants
23-04-21, 08:49 AM
Intolerance of other vulnerable road users whether they be on foot, four legs or two wheels, by vehicle drivers is something that needs to be stamped out.
I wonder if this will increase with EV drivers not realising their cars may be so quiet that cyclists / horse riders / walkers / etc don't hear the approaching vehicle?
Luckypants
23-04-21, 10:55 AM
That is like saying that drilling for oil is of no relevance to providing Diesel and petrol ( and medicines and road building materials, paints and lubricants etc. etc. etc. etc. ) - to make electric cars fulfill their promise to save the planet the electricity they use has to be carbon free - the problem is with subsidies is that the windfarm owners make money whether or not the wind blows, so with no wind and their turbines not wearing out they are still quids in, and guess who is paying ?
EVs may be part of the solution to global warming, but that is not necessarily the reason to run one. They are IMHO just better than fossil cars.
You are right that to be part of the global warming solution, the electricity used by EVs needs to be carbon free - but actually to 'save the planet' ALL electricity generated has to be carbon free.
Stop using the carbon mix on the grid as a reason to bash EVs. Unless you want to bash every computer / phone / house / restaurant / office / water company / shopping centre / road signs / street lamps / council / etc / etc with the same stick.
SV650rules
23-04-21, 11:04 AM
The latest real life range figures on BEV ranges make bad reading, they seem to be getting 60% of range claimed by car makers - even the Jag i-Pace only getting 150 miles.
Luckypants
23-04-21, 11:31 AM
Can we agree that no car achieves it's WLTP range / mpg figures, no matter the fuel? Those are lab results. If so, nothing will meet claimed range.
In which case, I would not dispute that real world ranges are less than that advertised but like many things it depends on how advertised range was worked out (not all test cycles are equal) and driving style. I'd be very surprised if an i-Pace is only getting 150 miles on a full charge if driven normally.
My own experience is that I'm getting 80-95% of the claimed range of my ID.4, driving normally. (around 270-290 miles) I see many folks on the electric Mii and e-UP! forums getting in excess of the 160 mile claimed range. I see e-Tron drivers getting well below the WLTP, but don't care as it charges so fast. Tesla drivers regularly state over 300 miles on a charge. I guess it depends if you are following a pro-EV media or an anti-EV media.
svenrico
24-04-21, 08:35 PM
The latest real life range figures on BEV ranges make bad reading, they seem to be getting 60% of range claimed by car makers - even the Jag i-Pace only getting 150 miles.
Surprise, surprise !
The latest real life range figures on BEV ranges make bad reading, they seem to be getting 60% of range claimed by car makers - even the Jag i-Pace only getting 150 miles.
Surprise, surprise !
...I never achieved the mpg figures of the cars I bought either. Nothing has changed.
I think one assumption we make about electric cars is that everyone that owns an ICE car will buy an electric car. I think prices will be too high for that and the government will push people towards public transport instead.
redtrummy
25-04-21, 08:12 AM
I think one assumption we make about electric cars is that everyone that owns an ICE car will buy an electric car. I think prices will be too high for that and the government will push people towards public transport instead. __________________
I agree - Covid permitting!
I really think there is a role for a stripped back no frills, small basic and cheap electric car. Thinking back to when a friend had a Bond 3 wheeler with the Villiers engine mounted over the front wheel. No heater as such, no reverse but it could turn in around in its own diameter, and about 250 miles between something needing attenion! Fun days.
Not that I am advocating anything quite so extreme.
SV650rules
25-04-21, 08:56 AM
Take a BEV anywhere near a motorway and range plummets, range figures are done at 50mph. There is as much power in gallon of petrol ( 25KWh ) as in the first Nissan Leaf battery that would get you 60 miles on a good day. BEV are good for local knocking around as better than ICE in traffic - but mega expensive as a 'second car' to go shopping. People are hooked on personal transport, and unless everyone moves back into city living then the transport system outside big towns and cities is patchy - and expensive. To think people will go back to buses and trains is not understanding human nature.
svenrico
25-04-21, 11:43 AM
My motorbike is currently showing around 67 mpg on the dash display if that is anything to go by !
Luckypants
25-04-21, 12:16 PM
My BEV is doing 120 MPGe thanks.
There may be 25kWh of energy in a gallon of petrol, I haven't checked but will take your word... However reciprocating engines are extremely inefficient and even the best only turn 25% of that into useful power. So electric motors are over 90% efficient, hence less need for hundreds of kWh in the "tank".
Luckypants
18-05-21, 04:22 PM
SpNSD_yUr1g
SV650rules
18-05-21, 04:58 PM
Now all that is needed is a reliable power supply to Rugby... bad news is that for last 6 weeks+ wind has been loafing off ( <5% ) and also Solar does not work in the dark.
garynortheast
18-05-21, 10:21 PM
I think someone posted a link or a picture about this which claimed the batteries were too expensive to replace resulting in the scrapping of a fleet of electric cars. This article contains the correct facts.
https://fullfact.org/online/electric-vehicles-from-failed-business/?fbclid=IwAR1hyzhlZZZTeEcPGLc2UTMNgZ4UyWgcyqnvOhbT 92NKZDqZWP1M1oGe9bQ
I think someone posted a link or a picture about this which claimed the batteries were too expensive to replace resulting in the scrapping of a fleet of electric cars. This article contains the correct facts.
https://fullfact.org/online/electric-vehicles-from-failed-business/?fbclid=IwAR1hyzhlZZZTeEcPGLc2UTMNgZ4UyWgcyqnvOhbT 92NKZDqZWP1M1oGe9bQ
...if there is one thing that Facebook has taught us, we don't let facts get in the way of our cognitive bias. :rolleyes:
svenrico
19-05-21, 08:52 PM
I think someone posted a link or a picture about this which claimed the batteries were too expensive to replace resulting in the scrapping of a fleet of electric cars. This article contains the correct facts.
https://fullfact.org/online/electric-vehicles-from-failed-business/?fbclid=IwAR1hyzhlZZZTeEcPGLc2UTMNgZ4UyWgcyqnvOhbT 92NKZDqZWP1M1oGe9bQ
That isn't to say cars won't be scrapped because the batteries are too expensive to replace ! Consider how much (or little ) damage it takes for an insurance company to write off a vehicle ?!
Luckypants
20-05-21, 08:53 AM
Should we have a separate thread to argue the toss over renewable energy? It is a different subject (related but different) to Electric Vehicles.
Luckypants
20-05-21, 11:02 AM
Renewable energy thread here now.
http://forums.sv650.org/showthread.php?t=239314
Good idea Mike.
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Would you stop riding if you had to give up your ICE bike for an electric bike? Apparently 31% of UK riders would, according to MAG.
https://www.rideapart.com/news/508651/survey-31-percent-quit-electric/
I'd like an electric bike but I checked the Zero site and I'd be concerned about the weight (485 lbs for the SR/F) and the cost is worryingly high (£22784 with the power tank to give it 200 mile range).
My Z900RS weighs 470 ish lbs and it's borderline too heavy for me.
Would you stop riding if you had to give up your ICE bike for an electric bike? Apparently 31% of UK riders would, according to MAG.
https://www.rideapart.com/news/508651/survey-31-percent-quit-electric/
I'd like an electric bike but I checked the Zero site and I'd be concerned about the weight (485 lbs for the SR/F) and the cost is worryingly high (£22784 with the power tank to give it 200 mile range).
My Z900RS weighs 470 ish lbs and it's borderline too heavy for me.
dont care what powers it, in fact i would love a leccy bike as long as the range is good. even 150 mile range of mental fun but a charge of 10min would be ok. 485lb is bloody heavy and too heavy for little old me and yes almost £23k is stupid money. they need to get prices down to around £8k to interest people.
personal transport in the future will be for the rich only.
I agree with Bibs, I'd happily have a leccy bike, in fact I'd look forward to one (admittedly not as an only bike), but the prices are just fantasy.
The rolling chassis costs are exactly the same as current bikes. An electric motor and a battery CANNOT be £15k more expensive than a petrol engine. If people want to pay that sort of money, crack on, but not here thanks.
Chris_SVS
22-05-21, 02:08 PM
Wouldn't bother me too much going full E, I've been contemplating an electric car or possibly van
svenrico
23-05-21, 12:07 AM
Isn't a big part of motorcycling the character of the engine of the bike you are riding ?! I just don't see much character in an electric motor.
Isn't a big part of motorcycling the character of the engine of the bike you are riding ?! I just don't see much character in an electric motor.
I wear earplugs so the "character" doesn't intrude! For me, it's the acceleration and the quieter the bike, the more effortless the acceleration seems so a faint hum from a motor would be perfect. I'd miss changing gear but I'd get over it.
Isn't a big part of motorcycling the character of the engine of the bike you are riding ?! I just don't see much character in an electric motor.
nope.. for me my bike is a tool. its takes me places quicker and easier than a car and its fun. i like the idea of a silent smooth motorcycle.
when you go out for 300+ miles in a day runs the sound of loud exhausts just starts to pizz you off.
Isn't a big part of motorcycling the character of the engine of the bike you are riding ?! I just don't see much character in an electric motor.
If by "character" you mean feel rather than noise, then that character could be programmed in to the drive system - drive electronics can be made to give pretty much whichever torque curve you want to have (within the motor's overall core capability).
... I'd miss changing gear but I'd get over it.
Also, there's no absolute necessity to do away with a mechanical gearbox (drivetrain efficiency loss notwithstanding). It could be engineered to cope with a different primary input speed range.
There's already talk of artificial sound being incorporated, for safety of other road users (who expect to hear vehicles) as well as retaining driver-desired 'character'.
These may be the sort of marketing developments that become more commonplace in the future?
svenrico
24-05-21, 09:40 PM
Well , there is more than just the sound that gives a motorcycle engine character. Different types of engine, triples, V twins, 4 cylinder etc , all have different characters. I thought all motorcyclists understood that !:)
daktulos
25-05-21, 07:42 AM
Well , there is more than just the sound that gives a motorcycle engine character. Different types of engine, triples, V twins, 4 cylinder etc , all have different characters. I thought all motorcyclists understood that !:)
Electric bikes have their own character, too. I know people have preferences, but I've never met someone who said "I only ride twins, I'd never ride a triple as I don't like its character".
SV650rules
25-05-21, 08:12 AM
Well , there is more than just the sound that gives a motorcycle engine character. Different types of engine, triples, V twins, 4 cylinder etc , all have different characters. I thought all motorcyclists understood that !:)
Everything is gonna become boring and vanilla, bikes will be like kitchen appliances ( I know some people prefer one make of microwave oven to another, but they all look and sound the same ) the only difference will be the tank badge ---- and if the fraudsters at Apple are an example then the bike software will get regular updates ( whether you want them or not ) and each one will slow the bike down. Every time you pass a speed sign the bike will automatically go to set speed and won't go any faster until you pass a higher one, and it that one is obscured by moss and bushes like the one by us - well you will do 30 all day.
svenrico
25-05-21, 11:59 AM
Electric bikes have their own character, too. I know people have preferences, but I've never met someone who said "I only ride twins, I'd never ride a triple as I don't like its character".
I didn't say that a rider only rides a bike with one particular type of engine! I've ridden singles, twins, triples, 4 cylinder as a lot of people will have.
What is happening though is that the only choice will be an electric motor.
Dave20046
25-05-21, 09:58 PM
Electric bikes have their own character, too. I know people have preferences, but I've never met someone who said "I only ride twins, I'd never ride a triple as I don't like its character".
To be honest, I might be that person but appreciate I'm a strange minority. (Not triples, but IL4's), I stick with twins though, ideally V format.
That said, I've heard good things about electric bikes! From a selfish 'fun' point of view over 'survival of the human race' I hope it doesn;t go the way SV650rules says - we're nearly there though with the AI cars and the blackboxes teenagers have in the i.c.e cars
I'm a strange minority :D
Every time you pass a speed sign the bike will automatically go to set speed and won't go any faster until you pass a higher one, and it that one is obscured by moss and bushes like the one by us - well you will do 30 all day.
i like the idea of automatically restricting speed in cities, towns and villages. oohh and the speed wont be set by signs it will be via GPS. my car already has a button to restrict the speed and has settings for 20, 30, etc.etc. do i use it? only in big cities where they keep changing the goal posts. having said that i think i might be getting a nip through the door as i passed a scamera van at 35 in Edin as it was on a hill and the speed restrictor dont work too well on hills.
Luckypants
26-05-21, 11:22 AM
I agree with Bibs, having some speed restrictions built in to the vehicle are useful. My car has a cruise control that uses gps and sign recognition to set the max cruise to the limit. Helpful in all situations but very much so on motorway roadworks or long wide roads with a low limit. It needs switching on, so I choose to use it or not. It does not restrict my speed without my say so. I can also flip that to speed limiter, so I drive the car but it will never go above the posted limit - I don't use it but see times it would be useful.
SV650rules
26-05-21, 01:18 PM
i like the idea of automatically restricting speed in cities, towns and villages. oohh and the speed wont be set by signs it will be via GPS. my car already has a button to restrict the speed and has settings for 20, 30, etc.etc. do i use it? only in big cities where they keep changing the goal posts. having said that i think i might be getting a nip through the door as i passed a scamera van at 35 in Edin as it was on a hill and the speed restrictor dont work too well on hills.
GPS accuracy is good most of the time - about 5 metres, but is only as accurate as the map data it is referencing, and how many people driving around with maps years out of date, and GPS only works when speed limits haven't been changed for a while ( new map releases don't update all the data at once for every speed limit in the world ) - it would be better to have transponders in speed limit signs that pings information to the vehicle - but that will cost money, but same problem exists as with the camera systems now being used that speed limits on side roads get picked up by mistake. So maybe short range chips embedded in road surface.
Well , there is more than just the sound that gives a motorcycle engine character. Different types of engine, triples, V twins, 4 cylinder etc , all have different characters. I thought all motorcyclists understood that !:)
I didn't say that a rider only rides a bike with one particular type of engine! I've ridden singles, twins, triples, 4 cylinder as a lot of people will have.
What is happening though is that the only choice will be an electric motor.
I don't think electric drive train needs to be a bland or boring drive train. Far from it. As I said before, I conceive of a day when the sales/marketing teams start demanding different 'feel' out of the machines to meet the customers' demands. The motor drive electronics can be engineered to deliver that (not dissimilar concept to fuel/air mapping of ICE injections systems).
If by "character" you mean feel rather than noise, then that character could be programmed in to the drive system - drive electronics can be made to give pretty much whichever torque curve you want to have (within the motor's overall core capability).
So following on from that, just imagine having a single bike where you could flip the motor type by pressing a button! Damn sight easier than creating a 'special' by an engine transplant. Ok riding position and geometry differences might still need dealing with but why do we keep getting stuck with the mindset that an electric motor drive is really just a tedious fake or sub-standard drivetrain arrangement?
and if you want more character, take off the wheel weights then you'll get your vibration. I like the idea of turbine like smoothness as the bike surges ahead with maybe a faint whine from the motor. The whine might be from my bank balance ;)
Luckypants
27-05-21, 07:05 AM
I like the idea of an electric bike. Adjustable engine braking, instant throttle response, max torque from a standstill for easy hill starts. I would miss the engine sounds, especially blipping the throttle on downshifts which is part of the character argument I suppose.
But if the choice is no bikes or electric bikes - electric all the way.
DarrenSV650S
27-05-21, 07:27 AM
I've never understood why anyone thinks max torque at 0rpm is a good thing. That's the last place I'd want it. That's when you are most likely to break traction.
You've then got the disappointment of producing less and less power as you rev.
I think it makes more sense to have enough power down low for normal riding, then when you need it you thrash it to get the most power
Luckypants
27-05-21, 11:02 AM
Max torque is available at zero RPM, doesn't mean you have to use it. It means you don't have to rev like crazy and slip the clutch to get going on a hill, just smooth torque to get going.
Not sure what you mean by producing less and less power as you rev? An electric motor produces pretty much a flat torque curve, so its producing the same torque at 6000rpm as at 1rpm. With power being a function of torque and rotational speed, as you rev power increases. With an electric motor, you have power everywhere. Or is it me misunderstanding something?
SV650rules
27-05-21, 11:24 AM
Max torque is available at zero RPM, doesn't mean you have to use it. It means you don't have to rev like crazy and slip the clutch to get going on a hill, just smooth torque to get going.
Not sure what you mean by producing less and less power as you rev? An electric motor produces pretty much a flat torque curve, so its producing the same torque at 6000rpm as at 1rpm. With power being a function of torque and rotational speed, as you rev power increases. With an electric motor, you have power everywhere. Or is it me misunderstanding something?
Electric vehicles don't need a clutch, unlike an ICE the motor does not need to keep turning while the vehicle is stationary.
An AC induction motor is used in most EV because it is simple and rugged and does not need brushes or slip rings to get power to rotor ( the DC from the battery is changed into multi-phase AC by an inverter ), an induction motor has max torque (breakaway torque ) at zero revs when there is maximum attraction between magnetic poles. As the speed increases then 'slip' occurs between the magnetic bits, as the motor approaches 'synchronous speed' ( as determined by the number of poles and the supply frequency ) the attraction between the poles lessens - An AC induction motor can never achieve synchronous speed because the torque has dropped to zero ( when the rotor catches up with rotating magnetic field produced by stator there is no attraction to pull the rotor around ) , but from standstill to max speed the torque curve continuously drops as a curve. With a DC motor the torque curve is linear from max at standstill to non at full speed. What an electric motor driven vehicle needs is a gearbox LOL, that will allow the torque to be maintained. Diesel electric trains used the big diesel to drive a generator to supply power to traction motors - the diesel would rev like crazy as the train was starting off to supply maximum current to the traction motors for breakaway power, once train moving the whole thing quietened down ( until a dreaded hill approached ).
There are some clever types of electric motor that use electronic switching of power to level the torque curve and increase the speed range ( switched reluctance motors ).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Switched_reluctance_motor
DarrenSV650S
27-05-21, 03:46 PM
Max torque is available at zero RPM, doesn't mean you have to use it. It means you don't have to rev like crazy and slip the clutch to get going on a hill, just smooth torque to get going.
Not sure what you mean by producing less and less power as you rev? An electric motor produces pretty much a flat torque curve, so its producing the same torque at 6000rpm as at 1rpm. With power being a function of torque and rotational speed, as you rev power increases. With an electric motor, you have power everywhere. Or is it me misunderstanding something?
Most electric dyno graphs show power starting high then gradually decreasing with revs, and then it drops off a cliff at relatively low rpm compared to an ICE
... an induction motor has max torque (breakaway torque) at zero revs ...
Erm, I'm not sure that's correct. I admit it's been a long time since I've been involved in such detail but I'm sure I recall that AC induction motors have much lower torque at startup that at peak (typically about 1/3rd to 1/2?)
If higher torque is required to deal with a high inertia load this is generally dealt with by electronic starters or drive controllers that vary the frequency of supply to control the start & ramp up to 'steady state' speed.
SV650rules
28-05-21, 02:35 PM
Erm, I'm not sure that's correct. I admit it's been a long time since I've been involved in such detail but I'm sure I recall that AC induction motors have much lower torque at startup that at peak (typically about 1/3rd to 1/2?)
If higher torque is required to deal with a high inertia load this is generally dealt with by electronic starters or drive controllers that vary the frequency of supply to control the start & ramp up to 'steady state' speed.
Yup, but electric vehicle induction motors are fed from inverters that can vary the timing, voltage and current to get max running torque ( or even higher ) at startup. Single phase induction motors ( capacitor start and capacitor run ) are really bad on starting torque due to small phase displacement.
Luckypants
28-05-21, 02:48 PM
I've never understood why anyone thinks max torque at 0rpm is a good thing. That's the last place I'd want it. That's when you are most likely to break traction.
You've then got the disappointment of producing less and less power as you rev.
I think it makes more sense to have enough power down low for normal riding, then when you need it you thrash it to get the most power I'm not following the detailed talk of varying phases / timing / voltage etc. however I did find this article from Volkswagen about their ID.3 motor which states max torque is produced across a wide range of speeds and to produce max power it must spin at high speeds. Max speed is achieved at 16000 rpm motor speed. So no sign of power falling off as you rev by the look of it. This is what is being done for real.
https://www.volkswagenag.com/en/news/2020/02/in-brief-the-all-rounder-the-1-speed-gearbox.html#
Yup, but electric vehicle induction motors are fed from inverters that can vary the timing, voltage and current to get max running torque ( or even higher ) at startup. Single phase induction motors ( capacitor start and capacitor run ) are really bad on starting torque due to small phase displacement.
I can be too pedantic at times. You originally said "induction motors have ..." If you'd said "induction motor drive systems can have ..." ...
For the benefit of the completely clueless or dodgy internet 'researchers', I hope you can tolerate my fussiness quirks!:smt054
garynortheast
28-05-21, 03:20 PM
Don't worry Ruffy, I have had no idea what any of you have been saying for quite some time. You could all be speaking some obscure Klingon dialect!
Don't worry Ruffy, I have had no idea what any of you have been saying for quite some time. You could all be speaking some obscure Klingon dialect!
...but you did identify my wildflowers :)
Don't worry Ruffy, I have had no idea what any of you have been saying for quite some time. You could all be speaking some obscure Klingon dialect!
:smt046
I've never understood why anyone thinks max torque at 0rpm is a good thing. That's the last place I'd want it. That's when you are most likely to break traction.
You've then got the disappointment of producing less and less power as you rev.
I think it makes more sense to have enough power down low for normal riding, then when you need it you thrash it to get the most power
Max torque is available at zero RPM, doesn't mean you have to use it. It means you don't have to rev like crazy and slip the clutch to get going on a hill, just smooth torque to get going.
Not sure what you mean by producing less and less power as you rev? An electric motor produces pretty much a flat torque curve, so its producing the same torque at 6000rpm as at 1rpm. With power being a function of torque and rotational speed, as you rev power increases. With an electric motor, you have power everywhere. Or is it me misunderstanding something?
I'm not following the detailed talk of varying phases / timing / voltage etc. however I did find this article from Volkswagen about their ID.3 motor which states max torque is produced across a wide range of speeds and to produce max power it must spin at high speeds. Max speed is achieved at 16000 rpm motor speed. So no sign of power falling off as you rev by the look of it. This is what is being done for real.
https://www.volkswagenag.com/en/news/2020/02/in-brief-the-all-rounder-the-1-speed-gearbox.html#
I'm with LP. "Power" is often a misnomer. When you twist the throttle more (i.e. thrash it) you are really calling for 'more torque'.
Torque is the force that you feel when accelerating. Power bands are really about the spread and change of torque over the rev range.
Yes, with electric motor/drives, you can generally have a much wider spread of useable torque than most ICEs. And same torque at higher revs should equal more power by definition - physics innit!:rolleyes:
DarrenSV650S
28-05-21, 06:41 PM
I was talking about electric motorcycles. Maybe that explains the misunderstanding
I don't really need or want tyre shredding torque when pulling away. In fact demand for torque is probably highest at high speed as wind drag increases
https://i.imgur.com/4Wjau09.png
https://i.imgur.com/iPT5FCw.png
svenrico
28-05-21, 09:22 PM
Don't worry Ruffy, I have had no idea what any of you have been saying for quite some time. You could all be speaking some obscure Klingon dialect!
I suspect you aren't alone !
https://i.imgur.com/4Wjau09.png
https://i.imgur.com/iPT5FCw.png
thats the thing with leccy motors you can program the drive electronics to make them behave how you like depending on the physical capabilities of the motor. one of the great things about leccy motors is it will always be in the right gear as it has none and you can have masses of engine braking aided with regular brakes to give eye popping stopping power.
i'll never be able to afford one but i will be going for a test ride on one (if i can get on it).
thats the thing with leccy motors you can program the drive electronics to make them behave how you like depending on the physical capabilities of the motor.
This! A far better summary articulation than some of my earlier efforts.
My speculation would be that current ones are programmed to behave pretty similar to existing ICE bikes so that prosective owners are familiar with the throttle/seat sensation when on board. Change needs to be managed if sales are to be made. As this thread shows, there's enough to do to get folk comfortable with the concept - no point scaring them off with more radical changes all at once.
svenrico
29-05-21, 08:07 PM
My speculation would be that current ones are programmed to behave pretty similar to existing ICE bikes so that prosective owners are familiar with the throttle/seat sensation when on board.
Does that mean they will be making them with a vibrating seat ?!
Does that mean they will be making them with a vibrating seat ?!
only for women :rolleyes:
SV650rules
30-05-21, 08:42 AM
only for women :rolleyes:
They will have to program them like a washing machine on an unbalanced spin cycle.......
Does that mean they will be making them with a vibrating seat ?!
They will have to program them like a washing machine on an unbalanced spin cycle.......
Extra cost option for H-D surely? Presumably to be available in brown leather too!:rolleyes:
Good grief. It looks like it's long enough to straddle 2 counties.
https://www.visordown.com/news/new-bikes/zaiser-motors-introduce-electrocycle-300-mile-range
Luckypants
01-06-21, 10:57 AM
300 mile range? Waaay too much. I'm ready for a break after 1.5-2 hours on the bike which is anywhere from 60-100 miles. I need 2 breaks on my 200 mile tank plus a filling up stop. I could easily cope with a 150 mile range, stopping to suit me and maybe grab a 15 minute top up at each stop? Half the range would mean half the battery weight, which is a very good thing.
shiftin_gear98
01-06-21, 11:29 AM
Wow, that's Fugly.
garynortheast
01-06-21, 11:48 AM
Don't much fancy trying to get that round some of the little roads here in Wales. Looks like it has the turning circle of a supertanker!
Luckypants
01-06-21, 11:54 AM
Don't much fancy trying to get that round some of the little roads here in Wales. Looks like it has the turning circle of a supertanker! Yeah but think how smug you'd feel if you got it up the Bwlch-y-Groes :D
garynortheast
01-06-21, 11:56 AM
Yeah but think how smug you'd feel if you got it up the Bwlch-y-Groes :D
He he, I would feel smug - once the terror had subsided!
SV650rules
01-06-21, 02:36 PM
Good grief. It looks like it's long enough to straddle 2 counties.
https://www.visordown.com/news/new-bikes/zaiser-motors-introduce-electrocycle-300-mile-range
Bit vague on price, after much searching I found 'proposed price US$25,000' which is around £20K... pretty pricey.
svenrico
01-06-21, 09:27 PM
' is the Zaiser Motors Electrocycle the electric cruiser you’ve been waiting for? ' - er , no .
svenrico
14-06-21, 09:05 PM
Think I might have read it somewhere but when everybody (or at least those that are around when it happens ) who wants a vehicle is forced to have one with an electric motor, what about people who don't have a garage or private drive ?
Are pavements /verges going to be covered with electric cables trailing from houses to charge cars parked on the road or in parking bays in front of houses ?
ethariel
14-06-21, 10:47 PM
Think I might have read it somewhere but when everybody (or at least those that are around when it happens ) who wants a vehicle is forced to have one with an electric motor, what about people who don't have a garage or private drive ?
Are pavements /verges going to be covered with electric cables trailing from houses to charge cars parked on the road or in parking bays in front of houses ?
Forget charging points, how well do you think the grid is going to cope with 10's of millions of cars being hooked up to it?
That's millions being plugged in when everyone gets home from work, around the same time kettle's, ovens and toasters go on too all at the same time (Well probably between 1600 and 1800 these days).
On demand generation is being eaten into by Solar and Wind, renewable is great, right up till you NEED a few hundred megawatts injected into the grid when a cloud passes over the SE of England and the wind in Scotland dies down.
Just wait for the brownouts to start, time to invest in a decent UPS at home to keep the TV alive on those cold winter nights!
SV650rules
15-06-21, 07:27 AM
Think I might have read it somewhere but when everybody (or at least those that are around when it happens ) who wants a vehicle is forced to have one with an electric motor, what about people who don't have a garage or private drive ?
Are pavements /verges going to be covered with electric cables trailing from houses to charge cars parked on the road or in parking bays in front of houses ?
Unsupervised charging points scattered around sound like vandal heaven.... at least on service stations the pumps are all together and supervised. Voltages for charging also increasing, between 400 to 800 VDC, and DC is a lot nastier than AC
Already getting petty vandalism putting charging points out of use, next they will be nicking the copper.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-44874476
Luckypants
15-06-21, 07:37 AM
Forget charging points, how well do you think the grid is going to cope with 10's of millions of cars being hooked up to it?
That's millions being plugged in when everyone gets home from work, around the same time kettle's, ovens and toasters go on too all at the same time (Well probably between 1600 and 1800 these days).
Up to you if you believe this or not....
https://www.nationalgrid.com/stories/journey-to-net-zero-stories/can-grid-cope-extra-demand-electric-cars
a bit more EV bashing please :-)
who is going to be at fault when someone trips over a charging cable and kills themselves?
Luckypants
07-12-21, 10:45 AM
Well it depends on where you mean I think.
If you mean on my drive, then WTF are you doing on my drive? If you mean at a public charging station, then look WTF you are going. A bit like petrol stations.
If you mean dumb householder trailing a cable across a pavement, then the dumb householder I'd imagine. In the same way if you are cutting the hedge and cause a trip. There are examples of ways to mitigate this particular risk. e.g. https://www.thetimes.co.uk/imageserver/image/%2Fmethode%2Fsundaytimes%2Fprod%2Fweb%2Fbin%2F9b8b e5e8-ba4e-11eb-88a0-2b24633e3d76.jpg?crop=2250%2C1500%2C0%2C0
sorry about the mahoosive photo....
lets say some children are running about in somewhere like ikea's car park and one of them trip over a cable at one of the charge points and kills them. is it ikea's fault for not fencing it off or the car drivers fault for charging their car. now remember that you can't blame the parents for their kids running about.
also that gutter in the pavement is a trip hazard for walking sticks etc.etc
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