Whoopsi Mr R1 man...

Originally Posted by sinbad

I think you're right in that it's not the power itself that normally poses the threat. I've always thought that the biggest issue to get your head round with a fast bike is how quickly the next corner arrives, for a complete novice it's the number one hazard imo.

Say you're on your favourite b-road, riding well within the limits of grip but enjoying yourself and decide to open the taps on the straight out of your favourite corner- zap, you're at the next corner far sooner than you're used to going far more quickly than you feel happy going.

Surely this is how most accidents happen on "fast bikes" rather than spectacular high-sides on the throttle, and this is what demands respect and takes a fair bit of getting used to.

Again, only a problem for the kind of rider that is going to get a little carried away, it only takes a moment though.

When I watch my dad on his GSXR going up to bends, I think "how does he know he can brake that late, turn that hard, go round that fast". I cant work it out, I slow down before he does, turn in gentler and pootle round slower...even though it feels fast to me

I know why he can do it though

because he's 55 and been riding bikes since he was 12 years old. He's one of few people who I think could make good use of a 1000cc bike, but to be honest, he uses his 750 very well so dosnt need much more

Originally Posted by Alpinestarhero

When I watch my dad on his GSXR going up to bends, I think "how does he know he can brake that late, turn that hard, go round that fast". I cant work it out, I slow down before he does, turn in gentler and pootle round slower...even though it feels fast to me

I know why he can do it though

because he's 55 and been riding bikes since he was 12 years old. He's one of few people who I think could make good use of a 1000cc bike, but to be honest, he uses his 750 very well so dosnt need much more

And I'll bet he doesn't do it with his knee down

[Gazza77]

Interestingly, I remember discussing this with one of the travelling marshalls at the TT one year. I commented that I never saw any of them with their knee down, and was advised that is because it isn't necessary at the speeds they are going and they are specifically told not to appear to be riding recklessly, ie hanging off the bike needlessly. If at those sort of speeds a knee down isn't necessary, then I'd suggest it isn't necessary on the roads at all, or at least not at legal speeds.

That said, I don't think it is necessarily dangerous on public roads, that would depend on the time and place.

Originally Posted by squirrel_hunter

It’s all about practice and being used to the feeling of lean and things touching down. If you wish to make good progress you will lean the bike more and more and eventually you will get into the position whereby your knee touches down if you are hanging off in the correct way. It is far better that something ‘soft’ touches the ground such as your knee before something ‘hard’ such as pegs, and thus you use the knee to gauge lean angle which is perfectly valid on the road.

If you are getting to the lean angles that you may be close to touching down it is better to then practice with the aim of doing it as it is slightly less surprising if you are expecting it then if you are not.

You don't need to put your knee down to make good progress!! How many police bikers have you seen with their knee down?

Originally Posted by Gazza77

Interestingly, I remember discussing this with one of the travelling marshalls at the TT one year. I commented that I never saw any of them with their knee down, and was advised that is because it isn't necessary at the speeds they are going and they are specifically told not to appear to be riding recklessly, ie hanging off the bike needlessly. If at those sort of speeds a knee down isn't necessary, then I'd suggest it isn't necessary on the roads at all, or at least not at legal speeds.

.....

I rest my case

the fast riders I've been with move their body weight about, but they dont scrape knees. They just do what they need to to feel comfortable and safe

[fastdruid]

Originally Posted by ArtyLady

Exactly because when you wheelie you have no steering! ergo no proper control over you bike.

Not quite that black and white, there is a world of difference though between *pulling* a huge wheelie down the high street and the front *lifting* as you exit a corner but in general I agree.

As for getting your knee down, totally pointless verging on dangerous on the road, I *love* getting mine down on track but that's where it stays, never had it down on the road.

Druid

[squirrel_hunter]

Originally Posted by Alpinestarhero

Squirrel hunter, If i lean over at such an angle that it feels too far over, I get pretty damn tense. I dont know what it feels like when a peg touches or a boot touches, I'm not sure i want to find out

I understand what you’re saying, and I’m not advocating that everyone should go out and do it. You should always ride in such a way that you are comfortable with and so that you enjoy the ride. However there are those riders out there who are happy leaning a bike over at an angle others would not be comfortable with and by adopting the correct body position and riding techniques knee down becomes a by product. I simply disagree with the idea that knee down is not necessary and or should not be committed on the road.

Originally Posted by ArtyLady

You don't make progress on the road by going round the corner a millisecond faster! Its all about the ride as a whole. You points may be so if you are racing on a track - but on a public road you have hazzardous road surfaces/street furniture/signs/other traffic/obscured views etc around you, for all of which you need all of your concentration to assimilate the information. At no time have I ever been taught in advanced riding to slide my Rs about and de-stabalise the bike whilst cornering.

Yes making progress is about the ride as a whole, but that should not prevent you from taking a corner at a speed and with an angle that you are safe and comfortable with. Both of which are decisions that should only be made by the rider themselves.

Advanced riding is taught by different groups with different aims, and I feel it is up to the rider to take what is taught and make it their own for their own purposes. I assume that the advanced riding you are referring to is IAM, and yes they do not teach hanging off. But any advanced riding method including track that does teach hanging off is worthy and applicable to road riding as road riding techniques I feel are applicable to track.

However I know of no riding technique, road or track that encourages the destabilisation of the bike whilst cornering. Body position which is key to hanging off and thus knee down should be adopted before the entry to the corner.

[squirrel_hunter]

Originally Posted by svdemon

You don't need to put your knee down to make good progress!! How many police bikers have you seen with their knee down?

None, but having ridden with quite a few while they were on duty and spoken to them afterwards I know that they are able to make greater progress.

But I have never said that to make progress you need to have your knee down. It will sometimes come simply as you increase the lean angle.

[squirrel_hunter]

Originally Posted by Alpinestarhero

the fast riders I've been with move their body weight about, but they dont scrape knees. They just do what they need to to feel comfortable and safe

And thats the point. They do what they consider to be comfortable and safe. If that includes scraping knees then I do not see the problem.