Knife crime, do kids really not know the consequences?

[Fallout]

Thats the crux of it. I think judges should look at what harm people do and what good they've done so far. If their whole life has been crimes, causing trouble and benefit fraud, just ****ing mince them up into dog food, or at least put them away forever. Why would we ever want them back out?

[Dave20046]

Originally Posted by Specialone

For the record, I'm not worried about knife crime on me, I'm worried that lads their age think its ok or don't see it might result in death to each other.

If I ever getting knifed to death, I know my dodgy mates will make sure they pay

I was only joking.

Honestly, they don't care . They think they won't get caught, they think the consequences aren't serious (they've already pushed it however many times), more often that not prison can be an opportunity more than a punishment.
It depends on the background of each, often they won't feel included in society anyway so are totally feckless others feel they have something to prove or are just a bit nuts

[maviczap]

They'll only care once they're inside and then it'll dawn on them that its going to be a different kind of existence.

[Red Herring]

I think the answer to the thread title is no they don't, but it's not just the consequences to them they don't appreciate (or maybe care about) but also the consequences to the target/victim.

We have a certain section of our society that just don't seem to understand reality, I don't know if it's because they have been bought up watching violent TV and films, or because they enjoy playing GTA and such like, or because they get treated so softly by the judicial system early on, or if they just simply don't have any ambition or expectation for their life. I'm no expert on the causes, but I have spent a career dealing with the consequences and I do understand why he only got 15 years. That individual is a product of our society, a society that wants everything and is prepared to pay for nothing. He didn't understand the consequences of his actions, that's not an excuse for going light on him, but it should be reflected on how we deal with it.

If you want an analogy how about the other thread where we have been discussing excess speed and the dodgy police stop. If a rider makes a mistake and rides to fast for the conditions, and as a result he has a crash and kills somebody do we expect him to be treated the same as if he had deliberately aimed him motorcycle at someone and run them over?

Mens Rea, or "guilty mind" is a crucial part of British law. If we accept that the youth involved in this stabbing didn't fully appreciate the consequences of his actions then it is right that is taken into consideration.

Originally Posted by Red Herring

I think the answer to the thread title is no they don't, but it's not just the consequences to them they don't appreciate (or maybe care about) but also the consequences to the target/victim.

We have a certain section of our society that just don't seem to understand reality, I don't know if it's because they have been bought up watching violent TV and films, or because they enjoy playing GTA and such like, or because they get treated so softly by the judicial system early on, or if they just simply don't have any ambition or expectation for their life. I'm no expert on the causes, but I have spent a career dealing with the consequences and I do understand why he only got 15 years. That individual is a product of our society, a society that wants everything and is prepared to pay for nothing. He didn't understand the consequences of his actions, that's not an excuse for going light on him, but it should be reflected on how we deal with it.

If you want an analogy how about the other thread where we have been discussing excess speed and the dodgy police stop. If a rider makes a mistake and rides to fast for the conditions, and as a result he has a crash and kills somebody do we expect him to be treated the same as if he had deliberately aimed him motorcycle at someone and run them over?

Mens Rea, or "guilty mind" is a crucial part of British law. If we accept that the youth involved in this stabbing didn't fully appreciate the consequences of his actions then it is right that is taken into consideration.

Interesting angle.

Every case is different, but in this particular case I could see an argument for capital punishment, especially for the guy doing the stabbing, as others have said, he will never be a good contributor to society, be better world without him, his actions could be the catalyst to see him leave it.

I've always said that violence without consequence is a modern issue caused by violent video games and films etc, but perhaps that is a wider issue.
I play and watch these things myself but don't behave like this, but I certainly believe they contribute to some violent crimes.

I don't claim to know all the answers, it's a complex subject, we can't go around hanging everyone, intent has to be considered or we could end up as you say with formerly innocent people running someone down by accident then suddenly becoming public enemy number one.

[yorkie_chris]

Originally Posted by Red Herring

We have a certain section of our society that just don't seem to understand reality,

I think you've got the nail on the head there. My own experience of such muppets is that they've just got something missing.

Never been an ounce of good in them, never will be, just whimsy; whether that be kicking a dog, throwing a brick or stabbing someone and a vague urge to "be top dog". I presume some of these animals end up somewhat successful in crime.

Need treating the same way as other dangerous animals and putting down.

15 years does seem lenient. The guideline sentence for a non-premeditated murder involving a weapon brought to the scene is 25 years, though RH might be able to correct me on this as I hazily remember there being a 15 starting tariff if the weapon is a knife not a gun, but I can't seem to be able to find my original source on that. I also assume that his defense included "Lack of premeditation" as a mitigating factor, but I am still surprised that they got so little.

15 years is the minimum he has to serve before he can be considered to have a parole hearing, and doesn't mean that he might not still end up dying of old age in prison.

[Dipper]

Is not going out with a knife premeditation?

Even if the victim is selected at random...

I don't think it is in and of itself, taking a knife with you on a night out specifically to stab someone random I think would be premeditation, but nigh on impossible to prove. But taking a knife with you is not. I'd guess that his defense centered around the fact that it was his mate who struck first and therefore he did not go out with the intention of stabbing someone. But this is a guess.

Another mitigating factor in sentencing for murder is if you intended serious harm rather then murder. Would tie up with Mens Rea (though this is mentioned separately) and that these scum just cannot or do not connect actions and consequences.

I'll point out here I am not a lawyer or a judge, just a little I have picked up from the internet and friends who are lawyers. The CPS has published all the sentencing guidelines, if you can decipher legalese. As SP1 says it is a very complex issue.

[Fallout]

I agree with Red Herring too. There are A LOT of thick people out there, and it takes a degree of intelligence to actively think "if I do this, these are the results to him and me". This guy has probably never done that in any great depth or understanding and may even be completely incapable of it.

Having said that, I agree with YC. Just because he's incapable of it and doesn't understand the consequences doesn't mean he deserves leniency in my book. We put down dogs who bite people, and they don't understand what they're doing. Why do we put them down? Because they're a risk to people. This guy, whether he understands what he did or not, has an extremely high chance of coming out of prison and hurting someone else.

So get rid of him! Who cares if he's a product of the system and it isn't all his fault. The damage is now done and it's sad for him but he's only a hindrance to the rest of us. Unless he can be truly rehabilitated so he can contribute and not cause harm, fire him out of a canon into the sun.