juddering under heavy breaking

[Spanner Man]

Originally Posted by hovis

took it for a tyre change, and the machanic told me

im going to try to tighten it first

mechanic said ?35 parts + 2 hours labour, but i will get my mate to do it.... hopfuly

Afternoon all.

I take it it's your Blade you're talking about? If it is the the quote you have is most likely for pattern bearings, for the original Honda ones are around ?48.

They will probably be taper rollers, which aren't really suitable for the Blade, as the recess in the frame is only deep enough to accommodate the much shallower cup from the original caged ball type bearings.

If a taper bearing is used roughly half the cup is un supported by the frame, & can lead to the cup rocking (especially on maniacs bikes hint).

I have seen frames ruined by the use of such bearings. Buy the O/E ones & have done with it.

I bet someone other than the guy who wants to sell 'em to you will say 'I've fitted them for years & never had a problem'.....YAWN!!!

2 hours labour is reasonable for this job.

Cheers.

[squirrel_hunter]

Originally Posted by Spanner Man

They will probably be taper rollers, which aren't really suitable for the Blade, as the recess in the frame is only deep enough to accommodate the much shallower cup from the original caged ball type bearings.

If a taper bearing is used roughly half the cup is un supported by the frame, & can lead to the cup rocking (especially on maniacs bikes hint).

I have seen frames ruined by the use of such bearings. Buy the O/E ones & have done with it.

Slight derail here but...

How do you know that taper rollers are unsuitable for a particular bike? What should you look for or is there a definitive list some where?

[Spanner Man]

Originally Posted by squirrel_hunter

Slight derail here but...

How do you know that taper rollers are unsuitable for a particular bike? What should you look for or is there a definitive list some where?

Evening all.

I'm afraid there's no definitive list available, one just has to be a sad old git, with a retentive memory who's been spannering for too long!

As a general rule, if the bike has a steel frame you can put tapers in, if it has an alloy frame you can't. As alloy frames tend to be the ones with a shallow recess for the bearing cups.
There are exceptions of course! I've never tried fitting tapers to an SV, but I believe that in common with most Suzuki alloy frames, the SV headstocks are parallel. i.e. No shallow recess. So theoretically you could use tapers as the bearing cups would be fully supported.

Honda started using caged ball type bearings in headstocks over 20 years ago, since then most manufacturers have followed suit.
The advantages are that as they have a reduced contact area, the steering is more precise than a taper roller, as a taper has a much larger contact area.
This factor is obviously an advantage on sports bikes with pin sharp steering. So I tend to use O/E bearings on such machines.
However machines with older style steering geometry such as, Bandits, Diversions, & XJR's etc seem to steer better on taper bearings, so I use quality taper bearings on them.

The caged ball type bearings used as O/E are all made by Koyo, but you can't buy them from a bearing factor. Koyo make excellent bearings, & if you're using tapers Koyo are the ones to have in my opinion.

Beware the pattern bearings available from mail order companies etc. They're usually of only a middling quality at best (& plasticine at worst).
This is particularly prevalent on Hondas, because Honda have a 1mm larger steering stem at the top bearing, than Suzuki etc do. So standard bearings from Koyo wont fit. Hence the pattern option is most often gone for on Hondas.
Being REALLY sad, I could tell you that there is a Koyo taper with a 1mm larger diameter hole, that is only available from Honda, & was used in early Transalp headstocks. But I wont 'cause you'll all start calling me 'Anorak Man'

Cheers.

[squirrel_hunter]

Originally Posted by Spanner Man

...

That makes interesting reading. I was always under the impression that Tapers were the way to go without exception.

All hail spannerak man, the font of usefull and useless bike information!

[Spanner Man]

Originally Posted by phil24_7

All hail spannerak man, the font of usefull and useless bike information!

Morning all.

Spannerak Man, I like it!...............(Good job you're far away Matey).

For longevity tapers will always come out on top, & most riders probably wont notice the slight reduction in steering sharpness mentioned previously. So in that respect tapers are the way to go.
I usually have most O/E head bearings on the shelf, along with all of the common tapers. So I don't have much of a problem & I can give customers the choice.
In some cases bikes that had tapers, suddenly get changed to ball races, ZX6 & ZX9's being two, the O/E bearings are around £75, & the Koyo tapers are £30ish. Considering the bike was originally intended to have tapers, it's fine to install tapers on them, & the customers benefit from saving a fair few bob.
The other reason that manufacturers have almost all switched to caged ball bearings is that; As the bearings aren't available elsewhere they make more money.
They have Koyo by the short & curlies, as they have all the other component suppliers, for there's always an alternative supplier. Which is why in the past 10 years or so we have seen things like special Yuasa batteries (the SV being one), which aren't available from the UK distributors for some time if ever. The SV battery was £85 when the bike came out, & didn't become available from the UK distributor for Yuasa until 2002.

The latest trick with bearings to confuse things even further is to mark a bearing with a standard bearing number, & have it modified. The R6 cush drive bearing is marked 6206 & should be around £9, but it has a larger diameter bore, is only available from Yamaha & costs £25.
Some Honda cush drive bearings are Honda only, but at least Mr H saw fit to mark them with a non standard number. It didn't however stop them charging £30 for it the BAST@@DS!.

Lastly, how's this for SAD! A customer with a ZZR1100 C model rang me the other day. He'd ordered some headrace bearings for it, stripped the bike only to find that the bearings were different to those which were installed.
I said, 'have you been supplied 320/28 & 32907JR-2 bearings', he said errrr yes. I said you need to exchange the 32907JR-2 for a 32006JRRS, as they had sent him bearings for a D model.
As he had got Koyo bearings I offered him a straight swop, which he was most grateful for. However when he came in & had the correct bearing safely in his pocket, he rather humourously implied that I had a crystal ball, & should really get a life!

Cheers.

I've got this problem, juddery when braking, on the SV. I have a GSXR front end on it. When I grab hold of the forks they move back and forward very very slightly (about 1-2mm) so does this indicate head bearings? I'm leaning towards the discs but it's just a guess!

Any ideas Spannerak?

Edit: Actually they dont move that much, you can feel a bit of move but not see them move. I only replaced the front end about a year ago and replaced the bearings then.

[Spanner Man]

Good morning.

What's good about it I don't know, as I'm having the P@@S taken out of me! (From people who are a safe distance away I note GRRRRRRR!!)

A little movement on the forks could be down to wear on the fork bushes. The If you get a knocking from the headrace area when going over bumps, or when you're braking, your headraces could be loose. If after adjusting the headraces you still have a juddering give your calipers a good clean & lube. If the problem persists it's most likely to be a warped disc or two.
Minor warpage is difficult to see without a DTI, & expensive if you make a wrong diagnosis.

Cheers.

fair play to your brain Spanner.. it is indeed huge with information. Shame you live in Notts 'cos I need my bike to be tweaked with shortly. Don't fancy driving down to sunny Kardiff do you to fit a zorst for me and my tail tidy ??

Originally Posted by Welsh_Wizard

Don't fancy driving down to sunny Kardiff do you to fit a zorst for me and my tail tidy ??

you can do my bike at same time?

there is no grinding from side to side, just a little play when the brake is on, my mate recons i might get away with tightening the nut under the top yolk?

if not......... do you sell the parts i will need?